From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Context menus and mouse-3 [was: Changes for emacs 28] Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 00:47:38 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87k0wwsrj4.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <87h7ryet7n.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Reply-To: Ergus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31108"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: philipk@posteo.net, Richard Stallman , =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F_Kayaalp?= , Arthur Miller , Dmitry Gutov , Gregory Heytings To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Drew Adams , Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 16 01:07:12 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIK2Z-000804-Dv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 01:07:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39942 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIK2Y-0004te-CZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:07:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60622) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIJju-00087N-VK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:47:54 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic304-10.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.128.33]:35764) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIJjr-0003XR-4X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:47:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1600210068; bh=d3iusDl2IHpvqQPevErsD0O8BCPYACepDfiuzP05aWM=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:From:From:Subject; b=YhRykbxN7YuyGLj7nkBRAFhJWDkOYgKo1+YYUk6NWL3GQcbmk5addUMUB3vc0i5sOlD4QHmZkCUehEwAhcRcNucq4SLPHnX779+PCP4phe1Oirm46fBNlRDeZ99F2QYQPP9X+58BO8HHHWak9lkTRQ/+pUJRcyh8mrbt0z8d8PbaYv9cKQz43jc0Qi+Uisqm+jz7NCG9yvZbD0Tuey4rK2J2Pfnz2LdHvJUzKcmhP5WG2J6nCMejo1eUPnv7fde0X7gudncrU5ROD/NIRR/xZoHdTLu7Ae06l94L08Rk0ofc+tZgF8p+0YIVJ+HW8gm6TJcAShXN3Zn4nPLQnnNNkA== X-YMail-OSG: nO8Si8EVM1kdzwJejRbmBbgxgjvY0bkCE751NnpIFW1bJo_bVW7W1SkGEdHzfjj rrXYjMcjL_GHWtw6I5yGT7wnbBgDG4CaHyOWppVLGjxlyHGMniUBu0RewwaFFApEhmByKvMWQsKT DKoZm5VFkNWgLj.D.l2q7YsgiHpCzyVbITd_f9cUG.0zfQPrGT0oKNIOTdLhc0l84AlnwActHYQh SLkuBtKIMBjQUvJfYzqm4FXVDsFG8c3AuRjIsIz1d0H8vu.Zp7JpZUuOAUxr2WEXu1eQZkhXl1Zl vtBikceAEQTI2ZdTRAHQHs6JKAin9Nd_Bi0n9TIwC_s6FRyhj9KHOwwduQ4Zo13MGFEfp4iPU_ZH 4Zm7X86FrGhhS.lEZxBq9ujbLPYoSTtR.kkxTMeJnzalJQHDUgq74rIBEYExjN7hXQFvFa47bTc8 EtoHFV8Lu6Merx3JnkVM39xty5t.tRM7SS2MprHlf9F_PJqEUtbuCv2nH_yZoJmNvmYnGFsHMKzC DAnOcrida6gBV3fKDEwGRCKKaqrxj3GmMOhzgS8.bkyh8y6zhorAncbxzmLSNLKIYBUiKHFrrSZc Q03gt_B5M5Hk3CC29lLtFoa7GFATS6NlftoypcFSBWEXkJ5efT74Q3DDeJ79ipKfUyMWBVwMggbp XTIhuIkTsizXOaMO6vTqdV1qkdlmb2IY.NTuLXhQd2o9do4z7xmbPx8KlZOynx9raHLIXnwSUCJH ElCcOAjEsawkz4fQC1CBK1RpjOar_gQw2676ON7CLV3bgEcZK7XYKf6O__BesWUjgd5rjXW5WT72 w1qr5uIi6kcxJvvddLersT6tO30Ey15wJnNE1siAHL Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 22:47:48 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2f3801c180d1ffd5aaaf377386cb5f05; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 22:47:42 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.128.33; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic304-10.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 18:47:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255802 Archived-At: On September 15, 2020 10:33:51 PM GMT+02:00, Drew Adams wrote: >> > read `Mouse Commands' if you haven't >> > already, and give it a try=2E >>=20 >> Mouse support is poor in Emacs, this is the reason >> why I don't use the mouse in Emacs=2E > >I disagree that mouse support is poor in Emacs=2E > So you are the only one I know so far with that opinion=2E >I use a mouse in several other applications much >of the workday, and Emacs mouse support is superior >in every respect I'm aware of=2E But I'm no expert >on the use of mice=2E And perhaps the mouse support >in the apps I use is not a reference=2E > This is the same problem than undo-redo=2E Maybe the features are actually= better technically speaking or to whom knows all the tricks and trains him= self for years; but it worth nothing if the users feel uncomfortable or don= 't values some of the details that justify complexity in others=2E (Like hi= ding the context panel with a control or not having a redo button or not de= leting the selection) Or just don't need them=2E There are some "standards" in mouse interaction determined/imposed by most= of the gui programing interfaces from visual studio or java to qt5 and gtk= =2E The developers of all the aplications have been following them for year= s and most of the user are used to them=2E So this is the "dilema"=2E Or we change a bit (1 binding) to ease the user= experience and learning curve OR we expect that all the potential users ch= ange their expectations, trainings and don't go to any other editor but use= emacs because we pretend we offer a better functionality that they are not= aware of and most probably don't need or never learn/use because is comple= x to remember=2E >> > Double-click (`mouse-1') on a word, then click >> > `mouse-3' on another word=2E The selection picks up >> > whole words, from the first through the last you >> > clicked=2E >>=20 >> In other apps, the same is achieved by double-click >> (`mouse-1') on a word, then double-click the same >> (`mouse-1') on another word while holding down the Shift key=2E > >And that's better why? Having to use both the >keyboard and the mouse? > Usually the other hand is already in the keyboard and close to a shift=2E = Comparing, our approach of moving the mouse to the toolbar to copy after th= e selection is probably less efficient than anything else or the fact that = M-w and C-y dont share any key like C-c/C-v or that we need the two hand to= undo instead of C-z=2E All these are less efficient too but we are used to= them=2E So the argument of holding a shift seems a bit weak for any old emacs user= right? >(One of the arguments made by a few people in >this discussion was that `C-mouse-3' makes you >do that to get a right-click menu=2E) > No, the argument is also that many applications intercept that C-mouse act= ion, in terminal doesn't work AND the user don't expect it to be there beca= use probably we are one of the few (or the only) hiding the panel there aft= er a control=2E >> > Triple-click a line, then click `mouse-3' on >> > another line=2E The selection picks up whole lines=2E >>=20 >> In other apps, triple-click a line, then again triple-click >> on another line while holding down the Shift key=2E > >Both keyboard and mouse again=2E Better? Not IMO=2E >=20 But just the same button-1 so yes, probably simpler to remember and intuit= ive for any office (or other modern editor) user=2E >> But what if you need first to select a line, then extend >> the selection to a word? In other apps, triple-click a line, >> then double-click `mouse-1' on a word while holding down the Shift >key=2E >> In Emacs, this is impossible=2E > >Granted=2E But again, both keyboard and mouse=2E > And again, they are the same, mouse-1 and shift, so exactly the sames=2E= =2E=2E This is a pattern=2E Select with mouse-1 actions in panel in mouse-3= move with the wheel=2E Simple is better than complex=2E Complex is better than complicated=2E The emacs approach with mouse is indeed complicated=2E >We could provide a keyboard + mouse combination >for such use cases if that were a common need=2E > >> Also in other apps Shift+F10 opens the context menu, >> but why not in Emacs? > >That's orthogonal=2E Nothing prevents also having >a keyboard key sequence to open a context menu=2E >(Presumably the "location" it refers to would >be point=2E) > There is the key which many applications use to show the panel fro= m keyboard too=2E >The impetus for this discussion was expectations >of new users to get a context menu on `mouse-3'=2E >(But newbies are not the only reason for such a >feature=2E) > >> > [I'd like to see the double-clicking extended, so >> > that if you double-click a paren in Lisp it picks >> > up the full sexp, and if you then `mouse-3' another >> > sexp it picks up full sexps in the interval=2E But >> > this is a bit trickier=2E] >>=20 >> It would be easier to use this as: double-click a paren to select >> a sexp, then double-click another paren to select another sexp >> while holding down the Shift key=2E > >Another keyboard + mouse mix=2E > >[What I described already works for simple cases, BTW=2E >E=2Eg=2E double-click a paren in Lisp (open or close), >then `mouse-3' another paren, to select up the lists >and intervening sexps=2E] --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E