bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

Enhancement request: Let users customize the info that is included
by default in the bug-report editing buffer
(*unsent mail to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org*).
 
Be able to include/exclude any set of the main entries (which
start at col 0):
 
* Emacs version info
* Important settings
* Major mode
* Minor modes
* Recent input
* Recent messages
* Load-path shadows
* Features
 
The default behavior (without customization) should of course be to
include all of these entries/fields.  But give users a customization
choice, so they need not manually remove the fields they generally
prefer not to include.
 
And add commands to the Field menu to insert each of these entries.  So
if a user customizes to, say, not include field `Recent input' by
default, s?he could nevertheless easily include this field by choosing
it from the Field menu.  And just as for the currently existing Field
menu items, add key equivalents.

In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2012-12-07 on MS-W7-DANI
Bzr revision: 111150 eggert@cs.ucla.edu-20121207175317-wxhrqxpp0173whq0
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
Configured using:
 `configure --with-gcc (4.7) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.10/include -Ic:/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.10/src
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/libpng-1.2.37-lib/include -Ic:/emacs/libs/zlib-1.2.5
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1-lib/include
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4-lib/include
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1-lib/include
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/libxml2-2.7.8-w32-bin/include/libxml2
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9-w32-bin/include
 -Ic:/emacs/libs/libiconv-1.9.2-1-lib/include'
 

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Dani Moncayo]

> Be able to include/exclude any set of the main entries (which
> start at col 0):
>
> * Emacs version info
> * Important settings
> * Major mode
> * Minor modes
> * Recent input
> * Recent messages
> * Load-path shadows
> * Features

As a related note, I think it's pointless to send the below text as
part of bug reports:

  This bug report will be sent to the Bug-GNU-Emacs mailing list
  and the GNU bug tracker at debbugs.gnu.org.  Please check that
  the From: line contains a valid email address.  After a delay of up
  to one day, you should receive an acknowledgment at that address.

  Please write in English if possible, as the Emacs maintainers
  usually do not have translators for other languages.

  Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug, and
  the precise symptoms of the bug.  If you can, give a recipe
  starting from `emacs -Q':


This information is only useful for the user who is about to write a
bug report; it's useless for the rest of people, so IMO it should
_not_ be sent.


-- 
Dani Moncayo

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> As a related note, I think it's pointless to send the below text as
> part of bug reports:
> 
>   This bug report will be sent to...
> 
> This information is only useful for the user who is about to write a
> bug report; it's useless for the rest of people, so IMO it should
> _not_ be sent.

At least on MS Windows, at least using my mail client, that information is not
sent.  I've always wondered why I sometimes see it in a bug report.

In my context, at least, that text is not included in what is pasted when I hit
C-v in my mail-client message, after using C-c C-c in Emacs.

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Dani Moncayo]

>> As a related note, I think it's pointless to send the below text as
>> part of bug reports:
>>
>>   This bug report will be sent to...
>>
>> This information is only useful for the user who is about to write a
>> bug report; it's useless for the rest of people, so IMO it should
>> _not_ be sent.
>
> At least on MS Windows, at least using my mail client, that information is not
> sent.  I've always wondered why I sometimes see it in a bug report.
>
> In my context, at least, that text is not included in what is pasted when I hit
> C-v in my mail-client message, after using C-c C-c in Emacs.

Ah, well, so far I've always copied & pasted manually the text from
the Emacs buffer to my email program (the browser).  If Emacs already
discard that text, then ok, that's TRT.  :)


-- 
Dani Moncayo

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> Ah, well, so far I've always copied & pasted manually the text from
> the Emacs buffer to my email program (the browser).  If Emacs already
> discard that text, then ok, that's TRT.  :)

I use C-c C-c in the editing buffer.  That automatically opens a new Outlook
message that is addressed for bug reporting.  It has a single line of text in
the message body that tells me that I can paste (e.g. using C-v) my bug-report
text into the message body.  I select that line of text and hit C-v to replace
it with my report.

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Jambunathan K]

Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@gmail.com> writes:

> As a related note, I think it's pointless to send the below text as
> part of bug reports:
>
>   This bug report will be sent to the Bug-GNU-Emacs mailing list
>   [...]
>   starting from `emacs -Q':
>
> This information is only useful for the user who is about to write a
> bug report; it's useless for the rest of people, so IMO it should
> _not_ be sent.

M-x customize-variable RET report-emacs-bug-no-explanations RET
-- 

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Glenn Morris]

>>   This bug report will be sent to the Bug-GNU-Emacs mailing list
>>   [...]
>>   starting from `emacs -Q':
>>
>> This information is only useful for the user who is about to write a
>> bug report; it's useless for the rest of people, so IMO it should
>> _not_ be sent.

It isn't sent. There is a hook that strips it out, but it is easy to
defeat it, which is why you sometimes see it.

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Stefan Monnier]

> It isn't sent. There is a hook that strips it out, but it is easy to
> defeat it, which is why you sometimes see it.

I've just changed this text to be a display text-property, so you can
see it, but it's not really part of the buffer: copy&paste into another
application will not copy it and it doesn't need to be stripped
explicitly before sending.
IOW it now requires extra work to keep the text, instead of requiring
extra work to remove it.


        Stefan

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> I've just changed this text to be a display text-property, so you can
> see it, but it's not really part of the buffer: copy&paste 
> into another application will not copy it and it doesn't need to be
> stripped explicitly before sending.
> IOW it now requires extra work to keep the text, instead of requiring
> extra work to remove it.

That change unfortunately breaks fitting the frame to the buffer (using my
fit-frame.el), horribly.

Can't you please find a different solution to whatever your change was trying to
solve, a solution that has the text actually in the buffer so that it is
measurable for things like fitting, as before?

I don't think there was a real problem that you needed to solve.  How many users
actually copied the text, and how big a problem was their doing so?

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Stefan Monnier]

> That change unfortunately breaks fitting the frame to the buffer (using my
> fit-frame.el), horribly.

I'd rather fix fit-frame.el so it handles this case as well.


        Stefan

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> > That change unfortunately breaks fitting the frame to the 
> > buffer (using my fit-frame.el), horribly.
> 
> I'd rather fix fit-frame.el so it handles this case as well.

Suggestions welcome. ;-)

I've thought a little about it.  I could check each character for a display
property that is, in effect, a replacement string (as in this case), and then
get its width.

But that would slow things down considerably.  Currently I just get the line
width for each line using `end-of-line'.

I believe there is a longstanding Emacs bug regarding the same kind of thing for
a vanilla Emacs function that does some window/buffer fitting.

Perhaps you recall the discussion from a few years back.  The plan/hope was to
make it DTRT in terms of what actually gets displayed, not just what is inserted
(text, images) in the buffer.  AFAIK, nothing ever came of those hopes.
fit-frame.el suffers from the same lack of magic.

Anyway, clearly, for this latest bug (breaking fit-frame), it is FAR easier to
revert to what we had before your fix or to find some other solution to the
problem, as you saw it, of users copying text they "shouldn't".

It is far easier to fix that than it would be to fix fit-frame.el's calculation
of needed frame size so that it takes all display artifacts into account.

We should not let the ideal become the enemy of the good.  But as I said, if you
have some simple suggestions for fit-frame.el in this regard, they are welcome.

Even then, while waiting, it would be good to fix this minor
unwarranted-text-copying problem some other way than your `display' property
hack.  I don't even see it as a real problem that needed fixing, personally, or
at least not an important one.  How much has it really been a problem in
practice that users included instructions in their bug-report text?

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Stefan Monnier]

> I've thought a little about it.  I could check each character for a display
> property that is, in effect, a replacement string (as in this case), and then
> get its width.

It should use things along the lines of vertical-motion.  If those
primitives don't cut it, just send a request for feature.


        Stefan

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> > I've thought a little about it.  I could check each 
> > character for a display property that is, in effect, a
> > replacement string (as in this case), and then get its width.
> 
> It should use things along the lines of vertical-motion.  If those
> primitives don't cut it, just send a request for feature.

OK, I'll keep that in mind.  But the fact that Emacs itself has still not been
able to do this (calculate the effective display dimensions for a buffer), does
not encourage me to strike out in that wilderness.

If I had more time I would perhaps experiment.  But fit-frame is something that
works well, and I don't want to fiddle with it too much without a clear idea
about a simple solution/improvement.

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> M-x customize-variable RET report-emacs-bug-no-explanations RET

In my request, it would not be simply a boolean, as suggested by the name you
used.  Users would be able to pick and choose which fields they want to include.

Something like this:

(defcustom report-emacs-bug-included-fields '(version settings major-mode
                                              minor-modes recent-input
                                              recent-messages load-shadows
                                              features)
  "Fields to include by default for command `report-emacs-bug'.
The fields are included automatically in the buffer where you edit
your bug report."
  :type '(set
          (const :tag "Emacs version info" version)
          (const :tag "Important settings" settings)
          (const :tag "Major mode"         major-mode)
          (const :tag "Minor modes"        minor-modes)
          (const :tag "Recent input"       recent-input)
          (const :tag "Recent messages"    recent-messages)
          (const :tag "Load-path shadows"  load-shadows)
          (const :tag "Features"           features))
  :group 'convenience)

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Stefan Monnier]

> Enhancement request: Let users customize the info that is included
> by default in the bug-report editing buffer
> (*unsent mail to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org*).
 
FWIW, I find most of those info useless to me.


        Stefan

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

> > Enhancement request: Let users customize the info that is included
> > by default in the bug-report editing buffer
> > (*unsent mail to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org*).
>  
> FWIW, I find most of those info useless to me.

I cannot speak to how useful some of that info might be to Emacs Dev.  (But I
agree that the text mostly represents noise.)

My request here is for users to be able to express their preference in a general
way, instead of having to remove such text each time, if they don't want it
included.

The problem, I guess, is that if this info is not captured from the session when
reporting then it is difficult for Emacs Dev to obtain it later.  You can't
really ask a user to show you the last 200 messages from a session that might no
longer exist.

So I suppose there can be some value to some of that info some of the time, but
it's not clear what the right approach is wrt what to include by default.

Anyway, I have no objection to including it all by default.  But we should let
users set up their own default behavior wrt what gets included.

bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for `report-emacs-bug'

[Glenn Morris]

tags 13141 wontfix
stop

"Drew Adams" wrote:

> Enhancement request: Let users customize the info that is included
> by default in the bug-report editing buffer

There is no need for such complexity.
You don't have to faithfully use emacs -Q; M-x report-emacs-bug for each
of your 1000+ bug reports, you can just mail bug-gnu-emacs and make your
own call as to what info is needed. For example, it is obvious that none
of the boilerplate information has any relevance to this request.
And configuration options have no relevance to doc bugs, etc.
If you don't want to make that call, then accept the defaults and move
on.

bug#13141: [PATCH]: bug#13141: 24.3.50; Be able to customize the info included by default for`report-emacs-bug'

[Drew Adams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 738 bytes --]

> tags 13141 wontfix
> stop
> 
> "Drew Adams" wrote:
> 
> > Enhancement request: Let users customize the info that is included
> > by default in the bug-report editing buffer
> 
> There is no need for such complexity.
> You don't have to faithfully use emacs -Q; M-x 
> report-emacs-bug for each
> of your 1000+ bug reports, you can just mail bug-gnu-emacs 
> and make your
> own call as to what info is needed. For example, it is 
> obvious that none
> of the boilerplate information has any relevance to this request.
> And configuration options have no relevance to doc bugs, etc.
> If you don't want to make that call, then accept the defaults and move
> on.

This is not about me.  (Is it about you, perhaps?)

Attached is a patch.


[-- Attachment #2: emacsbug.patch --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 10566 bytes --]

diff -c emacsbug.el emacsbug-patched-2012-12-11.el
*** emacsbug.el	Tue Dec 11 11:41:54 2012
--- emacsbug-patched-2012-12-11.el	Tue Dec 11 11:53:46 2012
***************
*** 58,63 ****
--- 58,81 ----
    :group 'emacsbug
    :type 'boolean)
  
+ (defcustom report-emacs-bug-included-fields '(version settings major-mode
+                                               minor-modes recent-input
+                                               recent-messages load-shadows
+                                               features)
+   "Fields to include by default for command `report-emacs-bug'.
+ The fields are included automatically in the buffer where you edit
+ your bug report."
+   :type '(set
+           (const :tag "Emacs version info" version)
+           (const :tag "Important settings" settings)
+           (const :tag "Major mode"         major-mode)
+           (const :tag "Minor modes"        minor-modes)
+           (const :tag "Recent input"       recent-input)
+           (const :tag "Recent messages"    recent-messages)
+           (const :tag "Load-path shadows"  load-shadows)
+           (const :tag "Features"           features))
+   :group 'convenience)
+ 
  ;; User options end here.
  
  (defvar report-emacs-bug-orig-text nil
***************
*** 229,323 ****
      (let ((txt (delete-and-extract-region (1+ user-point) (point))))
        (insert (propertize "\n" 'display txt)))
  
!     (insert "\n\nIn " (emacs-version) "\n")
!     (if (stringp emacs-bzr-version)
! 	(insert "Bzr revision: " emacs-bzr-version "\n"))
!     (if (fboundp 'x-server-vendor)
! 	(condition-case nil
!             ;; This is used not only for X11 but also W32 and others.
! 	    (insert "Windowing system distributor `" (x-server-vendor)
!                     "', version "
! 		    (mapconcat 'number-to-string (x-server-version) ".") "\n")
! 	  (error t)))
!     (let ((lsb (with-temp-buffer
! 		 (if (eq 0 (ignore-errors
! 			     (call-process "lsb_release" nil '(t nil)
! 					   nil "-d")))
! 		     (buffer-string)))))
!       (if (stringp lsb)
! 	  (insert "System " lsb "\n")))
!     (when (and system-configuration-options
! 	       (not (equal system-configuration-options "")))
!       (insert "Configured using:\n `configure "
! 	      system-configuration-options "'\n\n")
!       (fill-region (line-beginning-position -1) (point)))
!     (insert "Important settings:\n")
!     (mapc
!      (lambda (var)
!        (let ((val (getenv var)))
! 	 (if val (insert (format "  value of $%s: %s\n" var val)))))
!      '("EMACSDATA" "EMACSDOC" "EMACSLOADPATH" "EMACSPATH"
!        "LC_ALL" "LC_COLLATE" "LC_CTYPE" "LC_MESSAGES"
!        "LC_MONETARY" "LC_NUMERIC" "LC_TIME" "LANG" "XMODIFIERS"))
!     (insert (format "  locale-coding-system: %s\n" locale-coding-system))
!     (insert (format "  default enable-multibyte-characters: %s\n"
! 		    (default-value 'enable-multibyte-characters)))
!     (insert "\n")
!     (insert (format "Major mode: %s\n"
! 		    (format-mode-line
!                      (buffer-local-value 'mode-name from-buffer)
!                      nil nil from-buffer)))
!     (insert "\n")
!     (insert "Minor modes in effect:\n")
!     (dolist (mode minor-mode-list)
!       (and (boundp mode) (buffer-local-value mode from-buffer)
! 	   (insert (format "  %s: %s\n" mode
! 			   (buffer-local-value mode from-buffer)))))
!     (insert "\n")
!     (insert "Recent input:\n")
!     (let ((before-keys (point)))
!       (insert (mapconcat (lambda (key)
! 			   (if (or (integerp key)
! 				   (symbolp key)
! 				   (listp key))
! 			       (single-key-description key)
! 			     (prin1-to-string key nil)))
! 			 (or recent-keys (recent-keys))
! 			 " "))
!       (save-restriction
! 	(narrow-to-region before-keys (point))
! 	(goto-char before-keys)
! 	(while (progn (move-to-column 50) (not (eobp)))
! 	  (search-forward " " nil t)
! 	  (insert "\n"))))
!     (let ((message-buf (get-buffer "*Messages*")))
!       (if message-buf
! 	  (let (beg-pos
! 		(end-pos message-end-point))
! 	    (with-current-buffer message-buf
! 	      (goto-char end-pos)
! 	      (forward-line -10)
! 	      (setq beg-pos (point)))
! 	    (insert "\n\nRecent messages:\n")
! 	    (insert-buffer-substring message-buf beg-pos end-pos))))
!     ;; After Recent messages, to avoid the messages produced by
!     ;; list-load-path-shadows.
!     (unless (looking-back "\n")
        (insert "\n"))
!     (insert "\n")
!     (insert "Load-path shadows:\n")
!     (let* ((msg "Checking for load-path shadows...")
! 	   (result "done")
! 	   (shadows (progn (message "%s" msg)
! 			   (condition-case nil (list-load-path-shadows t)
! 			     (error
! 			      (setq result "error")
! 			      "Error during checking")))))
!       (message "%s%s" msg result)
!       (insert (if (zerop (length shadows))
!                   "None found.\n"
!                 shadows)))
!     (insert (format "\nFeatures:\n%s\n" features))
      (fill-region (line-beginning-position 0) (point))
      ;; This is so the user has to type something in order to send easily.
      (use-local-map (nconc (make-sparse-keymap) (current-local-map)))
--- 247,349 ----
      (let ((txt (delete-and-extract-region (1+ user-point) (point))))
        (insert (propertize "\n" 'display txt)))
  
!     (when (member 'version report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert "\n\nIn " (emacs-version) "\n")
!       (if (stringp emacs-bzr-version)
!           (insert "Bzr revision: " emacs-bzr-version "\n"))
!       (if (fboundp 'x-server-vendor)
!           (condition-case nil
!               ;; This is used not only for X11 but also W32 and others.
!               (insert "Windowing system distributor `" (x-server-vendor)
!                       "', version "
!                       (mapconcat 'number-to-string (x-server-version) ".") "\n")
!             (error t)))
!       (let ((lsb (with-temp-buffer
!                    (if (eq 0 (ignore-errors
!                                (call-process "lsb_release" nil '(t nil)
!                                              nil "-d")))
!                        (buffer-string)))))
!         (if (stringp lsb)
!             (insert "System " lsb "\n")))
!       (when (and system-configuration-options
!                  (not (equal system-configuration-options "")))
!         (insert "Configured using:\n `configure "
!                 system-configuration-options "'\n\n")
!         (fill-region (line-beginning-position -1) (point))))
!     (when (member 'settings report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert "Important settings:\n")
!       (mapc
!        (lambda (var)
!          (let ((val (getenv var)))
!            (if val (insert (format "  value of $%s: %s\n" var val)))))
!        '("EMACSDATA" "EMACSDOC" "EMACSLOADPATH" "EMACSPATH"
!          "LC_ALL" "LC_COLLATE" "LC_CTYPE" "LC_MESSAGES"
!          "LC_MONETARY" "LC_NUMERIC" "LC_TIME" "LANG" "XMODIFIERS"))
!       (insert (format "  locale-coding-system: %s\n" locale-coding-system))
!       (insert (format "  default enable-multibyte-characters: %s\n"
!                       (default-value 'enable-multibyte-characters)))
!       (insert "\n"))
!     (when (member 'major-mode report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert (format "Major mode: %s\n"
!                       (format-mode-line
!                        (buffer-local-value 'mode-name from-buffer)
!                        nil nil from-buffer)))
!       (insert "\n"))
!     (when (member 'minor-modes report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert "Minor modes in effect:\n")
!       (dolist (mode minor-mode-list)
!         (and (boundp mode) (buffer-local-value mode from-buffer)
!              (insert (format "  %s: %s\n" mode
!                              (buffer-local-value mode from-buffer)))))
!       (insert "\n"))
!     (when (member 'recent-input report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert "Recent input:\n")
!       (let ((before-keys (point)))
!         (insert (mapconcat (lambda (key)
!                              (if (or (integerp key)
!                                      (symbolp key)
!                                      (listp key))
!                                  (single-key-description key)
!                                (prin1-to-string key nil)))
!                            (or recent-keys (recent-keys))
!                            " "))
!         (save-restriction
!           (narrow-to-region before-keys (point))
!           (goto-char before-keys)
!           (while (progn (move-to-column 50) (not (eobp)))
!             (search-forward " " nil t)
!             (insert "\n")))))
!     (when (member 'recent-messages report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (let ((message-buf (get-buffer "*Messages*")))
!         (if message-buf
!             (let (beg-pos
!                   (end-pos message-end-point))
!               (with-current-buffer message-buf
!                 (goto-char end-pos)
!                 (forward-line -10)
!                 (setq beg-pos (point)))
!               (insert "\n\nRecent messages:\n")
!               (insert-buffer-substring message-buf beg-pos end-pos))))
!       ;; After Recent messages, to avoid the messages produced by
!       ;; list-load-path-shadows.
!       (unless (looking-back "\n")
!         (insert "\n"))
        (insert "\n"))
!     (when (member 'load-shadows report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert "Load-path shadows:\n")
!       (let* ((msg "Checking for load-path shadows...")
!              (result "done")
!              (shadows (progn (message "%s" msg)
!                              (condition-case nil (list-load-path-shadows t)
!                                (error
!                                 (setq result "error")
!                                 "Error during checking")))))
!         (message "%s%s" msg result)
!         (insert (if (zerop (length shadows))
!                     "None found.\n"
!                   shadows))))
!     (when (member 'features report-emacs-bug-included-fields)
!       (insert (format "\nFeatures:\n%s\n" features)))
      (fill-region (line-beginning-position 0) (point))
      ;; This is so the user has to type something in order to send easily.
      (use-local-map (nconc (make-sparse-keymap) (current-local-map)))

Diff finished.  Tue Dec 11 11:54:47 2012

bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Drew Adams]

This is about the info that gets automatically added to bug reports.

Stefan granted that most of that info is anyway useless, to him at least.
Jambunathan suggested a Boolean option to skip such info altogether.
 
I provided a patch that lets users customize which info to include.

Glenn simply tagged the bug `wontfix', saying "There is no need for such
complexity."


The patch is straightforward.  Please reconsider it.
Why not let users set the behavior they want for this?

http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=13141#43

Re: bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Dmitry Gutov]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> This is about the info that gets automatically added to bug reports.
>
> Stefan granted that most of that info is anyway useless, to him at least.
> Jambunathan suggested a Boolean option to skip such info altogether.
>  
> I provided a patch that lets users customize which info to include.
>
> Glenn simply tagged the bug `wontfix', saying "There is no need for such
> complexity."
>
>
> The patch is straightforward.  Please reconsider it.
> Why not let users set the behavior they want for this?

Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information to
include. The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
always-useful parts (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and
leave out the noise. While possibly still providing interactive commands
allowing to insert the additional information in a follow-up email.

I also think this is one of the parts of Emacs where backwards
compatibility is the least important, so it's odd that the bug reporting
interface hasn't changed much in years.

Re: bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 04:35:24 +0400
Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information to
> include. The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
> always-useful parts (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and
> leave out the noise.

In (info "(emacs) Checklist"):
You may feel that some of the information inserted by `M-x
report-emacs-bug' is not relevant, but unless you are absolutely sure
it is best to leave it, so that the developers can decide for
themselves.

But *extensible and customizable* (and self-documenting) are the core
of Emacs.  Experienced users *know* that what information should be go
to the Emacs developers.  It also lightens the burden of Emacs
developers.
-- 
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/XueFuqiao

Re: bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Xue Fuqiao writes:

 > But *extensible and customizable* (and self-documenting) are the core
 > of Emacs.  Experienced users *know* that what information should be go
 > to the Emacs developers.

Experienced developers know that what experienced users "know" often
enough just ain't so.

The only case where users are in a good position to decide is about
privacy-sensitive information that might be in traces or keystroke
logs, etc.

Re: bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Harald Hanche-Olsen]

["Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> (2013-01-20 07:19:10 UTC)]

> Experienced developers know that what experienced users "know" often
> enough just ain't so.
> 
> The only case where users are in a good position to decide is about
> privacy-sensitive information that might be in traces or keystroke
> logs, etc.

I admit to being one of those who routinely deletes much of the noise
before submitting a bug report. But then, whenever possible, I try to
figure out a way to reproduce the bug starting from emacs -Q. In which
case Major and minor modes, recent input, and recent messages are
truly irrelevant, and so I delete them before submitting the bug
report. (An extreme case is #11358, where I have deleted *all* the
predetermined info.) In any case, I hardly ever report a bug
immediately after encountering it. I am usually too busy trying to get
stuff done, so I finish that first, then investigate the bug,
typically in a separate emacs instance, and then submit a bug report.
In which case I am quite confident that recent input and messages are
beside the point, so I delete them. But perhaps I am very unusual as
bug reporters go.

In any case, I don't really see the need for more options. If I can
delete irrelevant parts from the bug reports, so can anybody else.
I don't think we need to make it any easier than it already is,
especially as it appears some people are already deleting more than
they should.

But perhaps they should be told, somehow, to review recent input and
messages for private content that they may not wish to reveal to the
world.

- Harald

bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Xue Fuqiao writes:

 > But *extensible and customizable* (and self-documenting) are the core
 > of Emacs.  Experienced users *know* that what information should be go
 > to the Emacs developers.

Experienced developers know that what experienced users "know" often
enough just ain't so.

The only case where users are in a good position to decide is about
privacy-sensitive information that might be in traces or keystroke
logs, etc.

bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 04:35:24 +0400
Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information to
> include. The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
> always-useful parts (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and
> leave out the noise.

In (info "(emacs) Checklist"):
You may feel that some of the information inserted by `M-x
report-emacs-bug' is not relevant, but unless you are absolutely sure
it is best to leave it, so that the developers can decide for
themselves.

But *extensible and customizable* (and self-documenting) are the core
of Emacs.  Experienced users *know* that what information should be go
to the Emacs developers.  It also lightens the burden of Emacs
developers.
-- 
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/XueFuqiao

bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Drew Adams]

> Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information
> to include. 

Too bad for you, then.  The user already chooses that.  As well s?he should.  A
user should _of course_ be able to choose what information s?he sends.

This is about the information that is _automatically_ inserted into the
report-preparation buffer.  If the user does not want to send some of that info
then s?he need not, even today, as Xue Fuqiao made clear.  All my patch does is
make it easier for a user to not send this or that info.

> The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
> always-useful parts

The maintainers should pick the parts that they think should be provided _by
default_, just as they do today.  They cannot and should not pick, in place of
the user, what the user actually sends.

And one of the maintainers has already stated, FWIW, that he finds "most of
those info useless".

> (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and leave
> out the noise.

One person's noise is another's important information.  That's part of the point
of providing this option: if a user so chooses, s?he can easily cut down on what
s?he considers noise.

Let users decide.  Emacs proposes, users dispose.

And I repeat, the default behavior - the information that is automatically
included by default - does NOT change with this patch.

> While possibly still providing interactive commands
> allowing to insert the additional information in a follow-up email.

Nothing wrong with that, IMO.  Consider submitting an enhancement request for
the addition of such commands.

> I also think this is one of the parts of Emacs where backwards
> compatibility is the least important, so it's odd that the 
> bug reporting interface hasn't changed much in years.

You are welcome to submit an enhancement request to change the set of info that
gets inserted by default.

My patch is not so radical as what you are requesting.  It maintains the status
quo wrt that set of info - the default behavior.  It simply makes it easy for a
user to customize what which info gets inserted by default.

There already is a user option, `report-emacs-bug-no-explanations', that turns
it all off.  My patch just gives users more control than an on/off switch.

RE: bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Drew Adams]

> Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information
> to include. 

Too bad for you, then.  The user already chooses that.  As well s?he should.  A
user should _of course_ be able to choose what information s?he sends.

This is about the information that is _automatically_ inserted into the
report-preparation buffer.  If the user does not want to send some of that info
then s?he need not, even today, as Xue Fuqiao made clear.  All my patch does is
make it easier for a user to not send this or that info.

> The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
> always-useful parts

The maintainers should pick the parts that they think should be provided _by
default_, just as they do today.  They cannot and should not pick, in place of
the user, what the user actually sends.

And one of the maintainers has already stated, FWIW, that he finds "most of
those info useless".

> (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and leave
> out the noise.

One person's noise is another's important information.  That's part of the point
of providing this option: if a user so chooses, s?he can easily cut down on what
s?he considers noise.

Let users decide.  Emacs proposes, users dispose.

And I repeat, the default behavior - the information that is automatically
included by default - does NOT change with this patch.

> While possibly still providing interactive commands
> allowing to insert the additional information in a follow-up email.

Nothing wrong with that, IMO.  Consider submitting an enhancement request for
the addition of such commands.

> I also think this is one of the parts of Emacs where backwards
> compatibility is the least important, so it's odd that the 
> bug reporting interface hasn't changed much in years.

You are welcome to submit an enhancement request to change the set of info that
gets inserted by default.

My patch is not so radical as what you are requesting.  It maintains the status
quo wrt that set of info - the default behavior.  It simply makes it easy for a
user to customize what which info gets inserted by default.

There already is a user option, `report-emacs-bug-no-explanations', that turns
it all off.  My patch just gives users more control than an on/off switch.

bug#13141: please review bug #13141

[Dmitry Gutov]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> This is about the info that gets automatically added to bug reports.
>
> Stefan granted that most of that info is anyway useless, to him at least.
> Jambunathan suggested a Boolean option to skip such info altogether.
>  
> I provided a patch that lets users customize which info to include.
>
> Glenn simply tagged the bug `wontfix', saying "There is no need for such
> complexity."
>
>
> The patch is straightforward.  Please reconsider it.
> Why not let users set the behavior they want for this?

Personally, I disagree that the user should choose what information to
include. The report goes to Emacs maintainers, so they should pick the
always-useful parts (say, the version, bzr revision and build options) and
leave out the noise. While possibly still providing interactive commands
allowing to insert the additional information in a follow-up email.

I also think this is one of the parts of Emacs where backwards
compatibility is the least important, so it's odd that the bug reporting
interface hasn't changed much in years.