From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: UI / reaction time - was: Re: 23 branch - can't push - lock Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:19:40 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1C745F22-51D9-4FE6-A8EF-5D621109E656@gmail.com> <83boxxy9de.fsf@gnu.org> <65EAEB6A-294A-4B8F-8BCA-F37C5914E5D6@gmail.com> <83aadhy1vg.fsf@gnu.org> <2B735F1F-756A-461D-A4D0-562AAC9BE17A@gmail.com> <83sjr8wjow.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1308342265 16104 80.91.229.12 (17 Jun 2011 20:24:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:24:25 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 17 22:24:21 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QXfaW-000067-SU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:24:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53755 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QXfaW-0001hy-0O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:24:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37771) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QXfVa-0000Ze-KO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:19:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QXfVZ-0000sL-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:19:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:34382) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QXfVY-0000sC-Nn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:19:12 -0400 Original-Received: by iyl8 with SMTP id 8so3071513iyl.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:19:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to :x-mailer; bh=Us/7oA+dAPBmuM3Ew0ql/sMmt5AzByElOyFKLcnn0TU=; b=dwhv7j61DMuP+87UP5ADYBDCxF+CZLDY7+HpWK3eg5CwKHqZFqXxDWxEV/6ci0QT9O HzPI338B3XSvbYe+YKNQimnPDYBHGleE7Ik7TgV9CCpLN9aZE1T12gDJuLEZmrl9Jgd5 tjMG1APQxT7p998SiEUHeP2R4HgpnBgLrZgEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=Yt3+1Jflns3UTjLJbdWX9ofQR8YDSVdRmn6+E8WaVOpP0DTvGRkwaO9gmNUA6pNtvg kgaW7owJRgzYwupiMc5MUNsBGY4k5qhkXxKK1tmdpZH5e0iXbJYLZuqnij8SsqFe3YZh UaVzhGACnkV4Fnsrb8a3uPD5zGI01jyFPnzLQ= Original-Received: by 10.42.178.69 with SMTP id bl5mr2099669icb.300.1308338383005; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from elin.andrew.cmu.edu (ELIN.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.46.20]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a9sm2871275icy.6.2011.06.17.12.19.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:19:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83sjr8wjow.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:140622 Archived-At: On Jun 17, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > How do you mean "discernible"? Most humans are generally unable to > react in less than 200-300ms, so 30ms is an order of magnitude off the > mark. Reaction requires a chain of not only perception and related encoding, = but also planning possibly moderated by execute control, possibly memory = access, motor planning and actual execution. That takes time. In some = cases, after some reactions have been routinized, you can sidestep much = of that, and react more quickly. That said, not reactions are relevant, = but change detection and perceived duration. Current cognitive = modeling frameworks assume a 50ms "clock" for cognitive processing = (simple, IF-THEN rules, for instance, in Anderson's ACT-R), and this is = where I derived this figure. You may be right in that more than that = is needed to estimate relative duration, let alone be bothered by a = wait. Some people can perceive duration in a visual stimulus in around = 100ms (a study by Efron in 1970 found 120ms as minimum). Change = detection seems to be similarly quick when subjects attend to the = location (Pashler 1988). We may both be missing the point with this, though. At around 1s, isn't = it much more about what users "feel" is fast or a delay, as opposed to = whether they can make use of the actual speed-up? The figures you obtained (less than 1 sec) seem OK to me (subjectively), = while the pauses I experienced (several seconds) seemed unpleasant. = They were at a larger scale than that. Thanks for the hints regarding speeding up bzr and undoing a commit. = I'll leave that portion of the discussion, as it has little to do with = Emacs, as Stefan pointed out.