From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:29:11 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1326036605 8527 80.91.229.12 (8 Jan 2012 15:30:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:30:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 08 16:29:59 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh5-00008o-7R for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:29:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56880 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh4-0003ad-PB for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33188) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh1-0003a9-Hm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:56 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh0-0000Z1-JH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:55 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:55463) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh0-0000Yv-GN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjuh8-0008S9-Ne for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:30:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132603658032440 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:30:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 15:29:40 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50136 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjugl-0008RB-LN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:40 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:56441) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjugj-0008Qz-6j for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:38 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08FTL51001923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:29:22 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08FTLds001887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:29:21 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08FTKuK027973; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:29:21 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:29:20 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczN417hhoKmLcjgTq2nChJQB97q7QAM2/8Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F09B652.0091,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:55542 Archived-At: > > There are a few cross references such as this in the `Info' > > manual: "see Overview of Texinfo(texinfo)". The Texinfo > > manual is not included with > > Emacs. These links are thus broken. > > We also have links to other manuals provided by other projects:... In the `Info' manual? Where many readers are new to Info? In the section where we introduce readers to the notion, appearance, and behavior of an external link? > There's nothing we can do about this; Sure there is - what I suggested: point instead to a manual that is included with Emacs - the Emacs manual, for instance. The cross references I am referring to are *not* there to point you to info about Texinfo. They are there to show you what a cross ref to another manual (a) looks like, and (b) acts like. For (b), the `Info' text in fact tells you to follow the link and then come back - something you are unlikely to be able to do with many Emacs installations: "Sometimes a cross reference (or a node) can lead to another file (in other words another "manual"), or, on occasion, even a file on a remote machine (although Info files distributed with Emacs or the stand-alone Info avoid using remote links). Such a cross reference looks like this: *Note Overview of Texinfo: (texinfo)Top. (After following this link, type `l' to get back to this node.) Good luck following that link you are told to follow, in an MS Windows Emacs release, at least. > avoiding such links would make the manual less useful. What is "such links"? The point is that these demo links have the wrong demo-link choice. It is fine to say that we sometimes need to cross-ref another manual - that's in fact the whole point of this section: to teach readers about external cross-refs. It is not fine to conclude that this link must point to the Texinfo manual. Please note that the links I am talking about are in node `Help Xref', not in node `Expert Info'. Sorry that wasn't clear. In the latter node the point is indeed to send expert users to the Texinfo manual, and they will indeed need to go there for the info in question. (And few `Info' manual readers will even bother with section `Expert Info'.) My point is about the text where we introduce users to external links. Show them a workable link, if possible. Have them follow a workable link, if possible. The `Expert Info' section is not something that a reader new to Info (or even most readers) needs to worry about. Readers of that section are in a different category, with different needs from the average reader of the `Info' manual. > A reader does not _have_ to follow every hyperlink she sees, only > those she is really interested in. A reader who really is interested > in the details of how Info files are generated, will need to install > the Texinfo package which brings the manual with it. You're missing the point. The reader is _directed_, _invited_ to follow these this-is-what-an-external-link-is-like links (in `Help Xref'), for tutorial purposes. Not for the reason of getting any info about Texinfo, but just to see what an external like is like. `Help Xref' is a demo/tutorial section. > > While it is not absolutely necessary that the links actually work, > > it would be far better if the manual used only links that work. > > In this case, a different manual could be used - one that is > > included with Emacs. > > Are you suggesting to have some version of Texinfo manual as part of > the Emacs package? Certainly not. I am suggesting what I said: let's try to cross-ref to a different manual, in particular one that is included with Emacs. The Emacs manual, for instance. > That sounds like a strange proposal: it would lead > to massive duplication of effort or to excessive interdependencies > between largely independent projects. Cf. the (still on-going) > discussion about "GnuTLS and W32". At least you and I agree about something. ;-) > What could be useful is to enhance info.el to give some indication > that a given hyperlink points to a manual that is not available. If that is easy to do, it sounds like a good suggestion to me. It is unrelated to this bug report, but I encourage you to file a separate enhancement request for it. > If this is what your report is about, Clearly not. > or if it could be satisfied by such a change, Nope. This report is about changing those couple of links in the Info manual that are trying to teach readers about external links. Point them not to the Texinfo manual but to, for example, the Emacs manual. > then I agree; otherwise I think we should close this report > with no further action. You wouldn't surprise me there. GC Lars will no doubt sweep it up in his nightly rounds...