From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: JD Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87h6i6y2ch.fsf@yahoo.com> <86msrys0qj.fsf@gnu.org> <867cj1sz0g.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CEFFDEF2-B73C-44F6-AB03-9AF0517043D3" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38843"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Dmitry Gutov , Po Lu , emacs-devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 14:29:13 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhEG-0009w0-5Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 14:29:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhDQ-0001HM-Sn; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:28:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhDN-0001FS-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:28:17 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhDM-0001N8-6q; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:28:17 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-68f51ba7043so7383986d6.3; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 05:28:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708262893; x=1708867693; darn=gnu.org; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kSHT4W4rMBvygl520IE/Fq0/tMdeRNWCBMzXXcPMjRs=; b=FOB1cQjBmj4aosoP0w98l26prCNZmodxG4CQkYFjfhnBYCo2rqV0dg/VksbpPHsJb1 B/V3To5WORK3YIYBRR/WVc+zBwbez453BQIbMpe9JuBMWyuMhCDAb8wBTmfDSPT7kLaF iRWgn/j6Y+V/mOr0T4KF20XOxKUrSmaA8JR8e32AckGYkbZLMIToh2iKahVeHnSxlxKG 80vqaC1fr10xT25ZHFVzYQEB0yfs7QVo+Gsn7ubHLmwUjgQUJH1fkkf9KKRiCzMIcgS1 8FrIqubFZqtaUyOHoob5gzgboSCxZoRDLEKD3J+IwTcoDAU/UyNo+HbtqguNoviRXC7E lbcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708262893; x=1708867693; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kSHT4W4rMBvygl520IE/Fq0/tMdeRNWCBMzXXcPMjRs=; b=JD8kgUi8leglb9XZq5TFnP3jJ9e8cul5AVsRLFaCGQwqVepWzd6qAO99eqG6WlXZQ/ KjQNrxIjx50nFAngT+SOdoYGM/abTwyDGGjDEQYm9GLr8XVCKt9A2mXZAlN1vyW1F6Oj xncEa/0Ml4/UH+9eh2m0nQ7q2BZFXooxVdvI1poYd2uA30KewJs3Bik245S/IVKLlFBI hXx2Mmzs8B0itfUhMTOhK2qYnGoTXUtNyNhIlGlgFTR+jMsUIMcH9o0yYr/+xT0+wACn ILKO9eQZuDtPM0nhpJhOAXA3XS1cyI7qnx2A5hf8NYKZ7dy5d4CRxnJ4c28kiCU5sxgf YC6g== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV6/DLGBuKLhgoO2cFcyrISeXpHAKrB+TAM7XTJRLJ6VecKFQmVD5646+Prr9ZU/RCzTW7H7UyFywg3CAQhb3SInBq0 X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyvYE43VBR6b0JFsoHnyk9ZHS3lX60KjbDkAnUf7TUdfoQoKTOb UOD8ErtJijNc1b2REOVg0+8gsLItXGaWEVrD9i0i9O+ioMlXqo6gcarPr/9V1us= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGKMUdB00+PXB9/iq2uKvcn1meeHCS4oNBzQeGZLPzGBAW2E+tJW64XinEcFw76HkOhwkuWEA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:4015:b0:68f:6013:7a9b with SMTP id kd21-20020a056214401500b0068f60137a9bmr2122121qvb.62.1708262893435; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 05:28:13 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (cm-24-53-187-34.buckeyecom.net. [24.53.187.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id pc16-20020a056214489000b0068f2a73e30bsm2098080qvb.10.2024.02.18.05.28.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Feb 2024 05:28:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <867cj1sz0g.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d; envelope-from=jdtsmith@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316311 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_CEFFDEF2-B73C-44F6-AB03-9AF0517043D3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 18, 2024, at 8:06=E2=80=AFAM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: >=20 >> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 14:19:05 +0200 >> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Dmitry Gutov >>=20 >> On 18/02/2024 09:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>>>>> It deserves support in Emacs. Just not, IMO, in core. >>>>> Why not? Why does_anything_, to speak nothing of a package = already in >>>>> core, not "deserve" support in core, while deserving support in = ELPA? >>>> Because in ELPA, users must proactively opt-in to the use of the = package. For such users =E2=80=94 those who have actively sought it out = =E2=80=94 in stark contrast to the vast majority of Emacs users, the = benefits dramatically outweigh the costs. >>> The costs are minuscule, so it isn't worth considering them in such >>> cases. >>=20 >> Those who say that the costs of maintenance is tiny, seem to have = missed=20 >> the simple statement >=20 > They did? Indeed my repo diverged substantially from the version in core (>10 yrs = ago), because the changes made in core were never communicated to me, = and I didn't know to check for them, such that by the time I discovered = them, the divergence was too great. This all predated ELPA of course.=20= I think on all sides this was inadvertent.= --Apple-Mail=_CEFFDEF2-B73C-44F6-AB03-9AF0517043D3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Feb 18, 2024, at 8:06=E2=80=AFAM, Eli Zaretskii = <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 14:19:05 +0200
Cc: = luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
From: Dmitry Gutov = <dmitry@gutov.dev>

On 18/02/2024 09:14, Eli Zaretskii = wrote:
  It deserves support = in Emacs.  Just not, IMO, in core.
Why not? =  Why does_anything_, to speak nothing of a package already = in
core, not "deserve" support in core, while deserving support in = ELPA?
Because in ELPA, users must proactively opt-in to = the use of the package.  For such users =E2=80=94 those who have = actively sought it out =E2=80=94 in stark contrast to the vast majority = of Emacs users, the benefits dramatically outweigh the = costs.
The costs are minuscule, so it isn't worth = considering them in such
cases.

Those who say = that the costs of maintenance is tiny, seem to have missed 
the simple = statement

They = did?

Indeed my repo diverged = substantially from the version in core (>10 yrs ago), because the = changes made in core were never communicated to me, and I didn't know to = check for them, such that by the time I discovered them, the divergence = was too great.  This all predated ELPA of = course. 

I think on all sides this was = inadvertent.
= --Apple-Mail=_CEFFDEF2-B73C-44F6-AB03-9AF0517043D3--