From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs" Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:39:32 +0700 Message-ID: References: <86d03bpqsw.fsf@protonmail.com> <4276dbad-f8ed-4a5d-8960-800b4b059a61@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10610"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Wayne Harris , Emacs developers To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 29 10:40:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kBwPJ-0002gU-Ka for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 10:40:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49960 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBwPI-0001Mc-Mj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 04:40:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39316) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBwOp-0000wF-7v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 04:39:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]:42095) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBwOn-0003gm-L6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 04:39:46 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id e14so843696vsa.9 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 01:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3vDRt/2J+s71DzJ9C5oQOZAVJ+HLnrfLUsvfeJlnYE8=; b=kWoAhMcOOAM1e0UFHBSn390E83Ues9/AtZS3IsIxgQ+AiHMfy6rlA5ZGAHNr7g7e9Y VQiUCEdSOKmUa3czyRRGuvfvN1rgS3e7g7gdCf/WrO43SSo32oH40hjecgygWkXYxkzN 485Ovb2k/4K+GylYnWNHcKjsruYdKk5x1HinlMOrcQ8SuMoSZK5HZ3SNPJlNaMovJUee LW8VeciuZwMX48xxHUTelqWgsbM5gVk0x9LoitdUn4avTGReYWHwnkUKYawuGLEK0TH+ jS2U0ddliviLQG39xY4GBS6lboZqqDSS4moWARPV9kgFQLSvI5DcrSBXSpMY7oro58V+ jEBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3vDRt/2J+s71DzJ9C5oQOZAVJ+HLnrfLUsvfeJlnYE8=; b=OYnBMIQmhYOS52fSwQouI14rKRinNQDtN5yy0ScMludDzsB5L44ldFLSF86zVCDHo2 OyANGyu6qK3XnRx2vHNbIcmqhG6Q1iw+aKauD48xyMgSFT8/HF0U/13j8PToNkfuFgVe jN1S6UI4XvaA+qThvk9+CiM9Sz2OUaO77wr0SrlxfuWGXGZ+E8YybI51lyudNIbpaFYm puEqpbAVymSXNLnuANblquZQXvhoiC7UvLjr98OGlRoLjqV0issodWW6VlsNtNnudt24 uqv+l1G1gCsxvnwvJ2/WisDCE4KKBkt36fI8xxY1eBx05OxPD6Es+RtQ2oAuBBHLzoKS fmFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530YHv+7uEAMIxrFEGWmAsX7tmR2+bXAokZ39vh5WPgvtRBv3Fzu d+nj2OCuLqIHz/fiHlnB59lFjxPWF6gXeyteecY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzppb4ZXGfN1w1C0Q6l6sNhGr5pSOxLA8jhIRigx2yxaSVyxFFG30Egq5JmFnRZ8DBdqd/ClCNJukd509uvVWc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f7cd:: with SMTP id a13mr573419vsp.55.1598690384592; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 01:39:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35; envelope-from=yurivkhan@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-xe35.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254379 Archived-At: On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 03:36, Drew Adams wrote: > Sure. But see below (you quoted, but didn't address). > Even if someone agrees that the app name should be > present, should it really be leftmost? Not leftmost but righmost, by convention and by your own argument that the most specific information should stay when the title is truncated. > And how often > is the app name really helpful? This is a trick question. You=E2=80=99re challenging the convention here, asking me to find an excuse to not follow it. > > > How common is the use of multiple applications > > > (in separate window-mgr windows) for the same > > > file or directory (or other argument)? > > ? How often, for the same file? If you see only the > file or dir name, is it hard to know that the app is > Emacs? Most of the time? I might have a Dired for the root directory of an application project open in Emacs, and the actual application running in a second window. Both will have the same title in your proposed scheme. I might be editing an HTML file in Emacs and previewing it in Firefox, and it might not have a yet. You want me to look at titles and mentally say =E2=80=9CThis one is =E2=80=98index.html - Mozilla Firefox=E2= =80=99, so that one =E2=80=98index.html=E2=80=99 must be Emacs=E2=80=9D? Lastly, I invoke the =E2=80=9CWhat If Two Applications Did This=E2=80=9D Ra= ymond Chen=E2=80=99s razor. > I argued to put the more specific info first, i.e., > leftmost. The app name is less specific than the file > name etc. The convention already does this. > Imagine if every one of your browser windows had "Google > Chrome" or "Firefox" or "Internet Explorer" or "Brave" > as its leftmost text. Imagine how useful/useless that > would be for picking a window out of a task-bar list, > a set of tabs, or any other list. Imagine if every > mail-client window had the client name at the far left: > "Outlook" or whatever. I don=E2=80=99t need to imagine it, I *remember* it. This is how Windows worked before 95. (Except none of Chrome, Firefox, IE, Brave, Outlook, taskbar, or tabs existed back then, so let=E2=80=99s substitute Word and Fi= le Manager and, for the sake of argument, cascaded window titles.) > What I see in the title bar for a Chrome or Brave or > Firefox or IE browser is this, from the left: > > 1. A site icon. E.g. fancy "T" for New York Times site. > 2. A page title, possibly with a subtitle. E.g. > "Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More About Where the Right > Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did". > > That means I can easily pick out that web page by its > app icon and page title. Would you really prefer that > the frame title be something like this? > > "Google Chrome <NYT icon> Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More > About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did" > > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. I hope so. Yes you are. Ideally: <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells Us More About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did | Opinion =E2=80=93 Goo= gle Chrome possibly abbreviated to: <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells=E2=80=A6 (The web site icon totally does not belong in a browser title bar, because then a web site could impersonate a locally installed application, at least until the user activates the window and sees the address bar.) >> It=E2=80=99s a convention, > Maybe some places, i.e., for some apps. I don't see > it for most apps, including web browsers and mail > client, on MS Windows. (And you did mention "Windows.) I do not know which browsers and mail clients you use but Firefox and Thunderbird do append =E2=80=9C- Mozilla Firefox=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C- Th= underbird=E2=80=9D to every title, at least for me on GNU/Linux, and I remember it being that way back when I was using Windows.