From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:13:58 +0700 Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <878uushwnq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389096842 29288 80.91.229.3 (7 Jan 2014 12:14:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 12:14:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Toby Cubitt , Emacs-Devel devel , Eric Raymond , Stefan Monnier , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Drew Adams To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 07 13:14:07 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0VXq-0007fU-96 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:14:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40198 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0VXp-0001aO-PO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 07:14:05 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53778) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0VXl-0001ZJ-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 07:14:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0VXj-0004Z9-Co for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 07:14:01 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]:47246) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0VXj-0004Yu-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 07:13:59 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id e16so49444qcx.31 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 04:13:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kDo4fUe2t3OPVFv8wbYtbFCaPl92l+NpO6kgm3704qY=; b=i+2RPJmV/bt/F2gdY9V5JKdwjI0cjbRPljYHJEA6WN1r0Szxm9Is/Ao7N/7S+Ync9K bjPInHs+tBsDOgQ8yE4CfprDppv3IJPe4/DLVk6ltCyjnMuyiJgFIuTrwhZjXc3RHxVQ LpxAjIZhha3Ssh5nilDUNNZ/JdwtouycOyt9JZIA5M2LVQKuy38/LxUfh2Q0Ercg/ElB cKu9rsWCOTDvQeM/FA4gKRyfyUsjC6i33Ee514FUsQM2He0ZzMi8JfbZiHdTRVg72rHs mBm9cCGl9abViNDpbVckxT2x9JX06yUdJojW8AHEWN/zBSe0u5sxkcUNOU85fzloNqp4 sWpw== X-Received: by 10.49.12.43 with SMTP id v11mr195009725qeb.50.1389096838643; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 04:13:58 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.96.14.74 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:13:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: akJLfqdBoIdJyUAppalSzGNVa6g X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167594 Archived-At: On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Lennart Borgman wrote: > > "Tabs" is a UI thing. Calling buffers "tabs" would be very, very confusin= g > for most new users. +1. The difficulty with Emacs that I had when I was a beginner Emacs user and still have not completely gotten over, is the relationships between buffers and windows. In a typical $another_application, you have at the top level a window or several windows. Each window may be split into panes, and each pane may contain several tabs, each tab displaying a document. (In rare cases, a tab may display a secondary view into a document that is also displayed by another tab. Opening a secondary view is always a conscious action on part of the user.) Closing the last view into a document signals that the user is done with this document =E2=80=94 this is the time to ask any =E2=80=9Cwould you like to save=E2=80=9D questions. Oth= erwise, the user is free to rearrange tabs between panes and windows. At every point in time, there is a well-defined spatial position of each document view =E2=80=94 e.g. =E2=80=9Cthe third tab in the upper pane of th= e window on my left monitor=E2=80=9D. In Emacs, what you primarily have is a bunch of buffers which exist without any permanent attachment with the UI. Then, you have frames that may be split into windows, each window being a view into some buffer. You cannot meaningfully talk about spatial positions of buffers =E2=80=94 they are essentially =E2=80=9Ceverywhere=E2=80=9D or =E2= =80=9Cinside=E2=80=9D. Or, if a buffer is not displayed in any window, it=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cnowhere=E2=80= =9D and also =E2=80=9Cinside=E2=80=9D. The model of Emacs is more flexible, but I find myself struggling with it because I have to remember that there are hidden buffers and cannot rely on the spatial model that my mind is accustomed to. (Curiously, my other always-open application is Firefox that *does* adhere to the spatial model. I end up opening a single window on each monitor, and around a dozen tabs in each window. Then I have trouble locating the tab I need since there are so many of them. So maybe the problem surfaces when the number of entities exceeds my short-term memory capacity, regardless of their organization.)