From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Mastro Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 14:58:00 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <5776B89F.60704@gmail.com> <83k2h5tbtv.fsf@gnu.org> <5776E1F4.3020709@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467410346 30493 80.91.229.3 (1 Jul 2016 21:59:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:59:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Scott Randby To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 01 23:59:05 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6Sh-0001LQ-Lw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 23:58:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35923 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6Sg-00027b-Pr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:58:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34313) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6S7-00027U-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:58:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6S5-0000Pf-5s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:58:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]:35584) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6S5-0000Pb-1X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:58:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id f89so64189596qtd.2 for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 14:58:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RuTDdQXP9wmlS2JOY0NA3FHdY+w54Jv8zwgOza9TVQw=; b=hj+n6lJ3baiKbk8GjltESN695PYmiwXnOC6spRS+mOLrr1ZDFWy1nyDA+/eewezO4L dbRTIChtl9TYkcBnfaMynOIRTXzVGpxP/lbwu4km7Zmk7yXf7Wah7rRwU6X1UVpTHWJf KS/qa7EIYUini5yt/Ux4gRumtK79OLkv6TO34il5dFjnMtJ1JKinsDuXhx4N7p+d5lv/ 4sDa4F+bykM580kaxBfiR92/8VZbp/vtUiHO8r7VzJu+mFSu7t5wgW/kqDUHkHmcA8jR urf/eEuAEdiudhafiGmMcn2SditapYCznVe+Z7skGyHU4cCQMBAS1xjKUFr6H9F0ckeK IC/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RuTDdQXP9wmlS2JOY0NA3FHdY+w54Jv8zwgOza9TVQw=; b=IkYe2oE4EAqefZdnK3aB8qlIj3MVi2J9sJmEmEr3rhF7YmUcAKB6WCjeVwA6i3gPoW ccx8dgNCFlSz1YDqLB8Y7ZCxc4zOxTx49UCwl4cO5NmZ18ig2b2HvC3Bw+NGfeVsqgfh r/o8jrwN5ifpdd3lNiEuZUo9G2GboyNjBcphrnenPDAhb1h9kj6AnDvuG/fHPhP9ebE2 WvVatZUR4AuLCo1j2aSGTlMGcer/o5+0sTQDE3aozrFKkrNy0rQlPjnm3YqwkZK3cXLj eVbx1hus7FpUqlO/1itlEt79HXFVUdU9lZr/X28y34xxf7EfU6xMYv/m8S/FqBjEm5zW 07hg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLeN2K9PljM/0h8BU7n1P4wD2GFzqYRCI0budMg52TEESL69opCg6JMtwaGAU7qluHUs/pxeJMYumOt4Q== X-Received: by 10.200.55.37 with SMTP id o34mr860958qtb.70.1467410300276; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 14:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.237.48.77 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Jul 2016 14:58:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5776E1F4.3020709@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205059 Archived-At: Hi Scott, Scott Randby wrote: > > Again, what are other examples? If Org is the only example, then what makes > it different from all the other Emacs packages? If there are more examples, > then what is it they have in common so that a design philosophy can be > developed that is universally useful? > > I could spend all day being critical of Gnus, but I've never been able to > figure out how to use it so I don't have any legitimate reason to present my > uninformed opinion about it. Nobody cares about my opinion anyway since I > have no standing in the Emacs community. Richard or others with influence > can make a vague statement that something is wrong with Org and the > community will think that the opinion has merit when in fact it doesn't. In Richard's first email in this thread, he said: > Org mode is an example of how Emacs development went astray. > > Emacs has many different modes and features. Users should be able to > use them all either separately or (when meaningful) in combination. > The problem with Org mode is that many separate features have been > tied together inside it. You can't use them separately. > > The right way to integrate Org mode into Emacs would be to pry out > each of those subfeatures and integrate it individually -- so that a > user could use each of them either with or without Org mode. It is > not too late for people to do this sort of thing, but it should have > been done before. I hope coming back to this helps make the context more clear. He is criticizing how Org was integrated into Emacs, not Org itself. Beyond that, I hope that we can all dial back the negative emotions in this conversation. Org is an important, well-loved Emacs package. At the same time, some people don't like it, or don't like particular aspects of its implementation. Nothing is equally liked by everyone, and that's okay, even if you're pretty sure those people are mistaken! John