From: Praharsh Suryadevara <praharsharmm@gmail.com>
To: Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com>
Cc: "Göktuğ Kayaalp" <self@gkayaalp.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:30:57 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAOXmYq-h9PZabD6Sj_ZrBfHOg0g9fc4Y77QWVDDaa3c4ZSMw6Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5913 bytes --]
Hello,
I've been an emacs user for ~3 years. While I'm now used to the defaults, I
do remember in some detail, the pain it took me to get used to the
keybindings in vanilla emacs .
I think the sore points other than the undo/redo, were C-f not being bound
to find, (though that would need remapping forward-char), C-o not being
bound open file. I do think it might make sense to poll on reddit. and
again to clarify _(I don't think any of these ideas would break backward
compatibility, but instead only add options to increase familiarity with
vanilla emacs for new users)_
@yuan I was following the threads earlier and I checked the idea of a
profile was suggested
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg02032.html, I
think a starter wizard could go well with this as a base for keymaps at
least if you're thinking about implementing it (?). The other thing I was
thinking was maybe you could write directly to init.el with use-package
with comments in an understandable manner following the discussion
about custom here
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00306.html. I
think this would teach and encourage users to tweak their configurations
which I think would be a win-win.
I would be willing to contribute some time to this.
Thanks,
Praharsh
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:31 PM Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Sep 8, 2020, at 2:48 PM, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use
> >> Emacs—that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And
> >> people agree that Emacs isn’t as beginner-friendly as it could be. The
> >> problem is what to improve, and how.
> >
> > Not necessarily. Personally, I don’t see much benefit in trying to
> > appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who
> > wouldn’t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer.
> >
> >> As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real
> >> beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than
> >> one year).
> >
> > The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and
> > couldn’t make use of it may think differently when a couple years later
> > they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally)
> > and some experience with other tools.
> >
> > Anecdotally, I’ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I
> > decided to stay with it. And it’s been more than 6 years now that I’m
> > using it for the good part of my computing. What was puzzling and weird
> > to me back then is useful and essential to me now.
> >
> > What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to
> > stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual
> > users of this package of software. Emacs is a power tool, and like all
> > power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user should
> > *need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time to
> > learn the tool. And a good power tool is designed with user who need
> > and use them the most in mind.
> >
> > IDK. IMHO, we shouldn’t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe promote
> > distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead. They
> > don’t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so they will do
> > it better than Emacs core nevertheless.
> >
> > --
> > İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
> > pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
> >
>
> I generally agree with your point. However, what I have in mind is not
> changing defaults, but rather a configuration wizard, that can prompt user
> and let him select from Emacs binding vs CUA binding, Emacs undo vs simple
> undo/redo, themes, etc. I’ve seen such wizard in Intellj Idea, Spacemacs,
> etc. Something like (just an example):
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Set UI themes:
>
> <some C code>
>
> - [ ] default
> - [ ] dark
> - [ ] ...
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Keybinding notation:
>
> C (control) Ctrl
> M (meta) Alt/Option
> s (super) Windows/Command
> S (shift) Shift
>
> Set keybinding style for copy/paste:
>
> [ ] default
>
> M-w Copy
> C-y Paste
> C-w Cut
>
> [ ] alternative
>
> C-c Copy
> C-v Paste
> C-x Cut
>
>
> [Next] [Skip]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [ ] Enable line numbers
>
> [ ] Use thin cursor
>
> [ ] Disable tool bar
>
> [ ] Disable scroll bar
>
>
> [Next] [Skip]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Emacs has a powerful (but possibly unintuitive) undo system, where
> undo operations themselves are recorded in the undo history, and redo
> is done by undoing an previous undo operation.
>
> Set undo style:
>
> [ ] default
>
> C-/ Undo
>
> [ ] linear
>
> C-/ Undo
> C-? Redo
>
> [ ] alternative
>
> C-z Undo
> C-S-z Redo
>
>
> [Next] [Skip]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Additional packages:
>
> [ ] Company
>
> Popup completion.
> <gif>
>
>
> [ ] Ivy
>
> Completion for opening files, executing commands, etc.
> <gif>
>
>
> [ ] Expand-region
>
> Incrementally expand selection.
> <gif>
>
>
> [ ] Which-key
>
> Shows possible keybindings.
> <gif>
>
>
> [Finish] You can re-run this guide by M-x beginner-guide RET
>
>
> Yuan
>
>
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-08 21:30 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30 ` Praharsh Suryadevara [this message]
2020-09-09 3:51 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 4:41 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 7:57 ` tomas
2020-09-10 2:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 3:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 8:29 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:08 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08 ` tomas
2020-09-10 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11 ` tomas
2020-09-11 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 7:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12 3:22 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12 3:46 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10 8:28 ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 0:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11 8:15 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 9:47 ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03 ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 9:33 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 12:13 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59 ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04 ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16 ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 9:31 ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 9:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 0:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 2:35 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42 ` E
2020-09-15 7:40 ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40 ` E
2020-09-15 12:10 ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33 ` E
2020-09-13 18:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20 ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 7:14 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38 ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15 1:42 ` John Yates
2020-09-15 7:00 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16 3:30 ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26 9:16 ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26 9:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20 ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22 9:06 ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49 ` Philip K.
2020-09-24 1:32 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 3:13 ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28 9:24 ` Po Lu
2020-09-29 3:29 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16 ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 5:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28 ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20 9:26 ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11 6:45 ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 8:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 8:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09 2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
[not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
[not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
[not found] ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25 ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13 4:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-09-08 20:10 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 17:28 Yuan Fu
2020-09-10 11:51 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-10 12:51 ` tomas
2020-09-15 7:11 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15 8:21 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 10:13 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15 10:34 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 11:22 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
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