From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Make all tree-sitter modes optional Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 08:55:02 +0100 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e0bc8a05f4f4c0df" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1231"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 18 08:56:17 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pTI4t-000AZh-O7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 08:56:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTI4J-0002X8-5O; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 02:55:39 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTI4D-0002WX-Ap for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 02:55:36 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTI4B-0005A2-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 02:55:33 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id cn9so597351edb.7 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:55:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hiCfJ/OtyqQWGtkVWqi8DRP97SIYtJPayp5WDCWPb7k=; b=LFXJ+KDHD5dEXfdYDYtCMuHlCH4zS0ctaYuPhbHxd4dgyM+izEKbl8IehUBFBtjBM/ fIkOO4XfsTbenzrYV8ik39DYFIqYiPUy6tks28Tj5lHZY6xNbUZBMijxIvJyT44xcWcA Gj7cOFMetdHG2PH/lpXdvoV7ePk5C8F49Lzx9+sByFIseJuo+EyoQPZfAQqIEvCDO4I5 wsLZHNKPuBqGhp6YI/YiwGoNX7/LaXapTv7BNFypQIny/0dRtgn4PijlP0jSh/mzBCsl 9H0jdNShX2ODTSdAgwH7hGyMwHfNKaRPb0Ew1lNRN6CMVHtaQjonRig9Wcja70K1B2xj V6nA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hiCfJ/OtyqQWGtkVWqi8DRP97SIYtJPayp5WDCWPb7k=; b=WyfU/2+cxc/iKG0hoD8onyofmrcpI1TQTDNk4MNMlHDoRqAspkxf4mwhEisjvw7ghE YDsZRvfS0hmm7kf6Et1ffoECK1nMyGFLN/vQMfn/+BA/n8SnXo8WWJMQZJozh+6EgISK g3HHS00l05sL/Oid0dAClNiE514eLn7gNpxWcjArUo4hE3Bs6EQIGT/uPH3D3IBPAiRA Kzx7QH1LNMfcxIFtAcGBwX5kJ6l0v4qO2Da3zKO5jidrwCZ8jjg0jLffND0KkRb3j8kA dfL8NOzafk4IdhLjNB6G/BttkedBHUeDaFbpskIeaNQcdlzBYXne5nFdQRkkbaTg/wfu Lvig== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXOkZEBfyy+Q1Mz/CMgStLDxX2VgNvJvia4M3d7f6j3ACdiBdtL I1agHKpf+Tv3TUuhnx3YIzSQKK9xODMVMgi8Dj+tPMFW+Yc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8PHPaDaurrx0eWETEN1eV1K7MgXtIvgftea/4t5W9KevtOgjPTmuME3xB9ZqxNyZPOaQc6LL3E9XCwJHDShuY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3aca:b0:8b1:2653:c5f3 with SMTP id z10-20020a1709063aca00b008b12653c5f3mr1618071ejd.4.1676706928701; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::535; envelope-from=paaguti@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x535.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_MIME_MALF=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:303520 Archived-At: --000000000000e0bc8a05f4f4c0df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message: 14 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:05:34 -0800 From: Yuan Fu To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Juri Linkov , Stefan Monnier , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Theodor Thornhill , Jostein Kj=C3=B8nigsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Make all tree-sitter modes optional Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:05:34 Yuan Fu wrote: > On Feb 15, 2023, at 11:27 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:31:46 +0000 >> Cc: juri@linkov.net, casouri@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, >> larsi@gnus.org, theo@thornhill.no, jostein@secure.kjonigsen.net, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Alan Mackenzie >> >> But you've got to allow me to have mixed feelings when the project I've >> put so much into over ~20 years is facing redundancy. >> >> It isn't facing redundancy, it's nowhere near that. You don't need to >> worry about that. I expect a significant proportion of users to wish >> to stay with CC Mode, for several good reasons: >> >> . the use cases it handles better that c-ts-mode (cpp stuff etc.) >> . the plethora of minor conveniences it offers that c-ts-mode >> doesn't, at least not yet, such as much more elaborate >> customizations of indentation and electric behavior >> >> I'm not even sure yet whether I myself will switch. I will give the >> c-ts-mode a lot of leeway and credit, but I don't know yet what will >> be the outcome. >+1. It=E2=80=99ll be a long way until c-ts-mode can be comparable to c-mod= e. >Yuan +1 here too. With some additional comments. If memory serves, Eli asked for "user" feedback. Here you are ;-) I'm using Emacs on different Linuxes, macOS and Windows. With the exception of Windows, I'm on master for my day-to-day work, which gives credit to the work behind it :-) I use it for programming (mainly shell, Python and YAML, including eglot for Python and the 2-3 golang lines I write) both locally and remotely (that implies TRAMP), documenting and producing slides (LaTEX and org-mode). On top of that, I have company-mode activated. On Linux, I have native-compilation, but not on macOS; probably because I didn't have the time when I started using it. Now, because in my setup I scarcely notice the difference, I have lost interest and I'm even thinking of reverting and disabling native-compilation... I'll tell you in a couple of months... Now, have I tried tree-sitter? Yes... I got it running on Linux. But the fuzz was not worth the gain. I saw from second one what yansippets, tramp, eglot (you name it) was offering and I decided to go for it (BTW, I'm so happy that eglot is is part of Emacs now). I don't see it in tree-sitter. so, I know this is not exactly FOSS compliant, but it is part of the experience that may shy away users outside FOSS operating systems: In non-free operating systems, it is getting more difficult to get compiled third-party libraries downloaded and running. So, I don't anticipate it will easy with the tree-sitter DLLs or DYLIBs if you get them from the outside world. This means that you will need to compile them on your system to work with them. And that will be yet another argument for sys-admins to ban Emacs from the "professional" programming environment. And I think that's really sad... My .2 cents, /PA PS: I'd rather see yasnippets moving into Emacs... IMvHO that's part of a *nice* user-experience that makes Emacs appealing :-) --=20 Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden, Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden Georg Kreisler Headaches with a Juju log: unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet --000000000000e0bc8a05f4f4c0df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:05:34 -0800
From: Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com><= /div>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>, Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>, St= efan
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,= Lars Ingebrigtsen
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <larsi@gnus.org>, Theodor Thorn= hill <theo@thornh= ill.no>, Jostein
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Kj=C3=B8nigse= n <jos= tein@secure.kjonigsen.net>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Make all tr= ee-sitter modes optional
Content-Type: text/plain;= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0charset=3Dutf-8


On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:05:34 Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2023, at 11:27 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:31:46 +0000
>> From: Alan Mackenz= ie <acm@muc.de>
>>
>> But you've got to allow me to have= mixed feelings when the project I've
>> put so much in= to over ~20 years is facing redundancy.
>>
>&g= t; It isn't facing redundancy, it's nowhere near that.=C2=A0 You do= n't need to
>> worry about that.=C2=A0 I expect a signi= ficant proportion of users to wish
>> to stay with CC Mode,= for several good reasons:
>>
>> . the use = cases it handles better that c-ts-mode (cpp stuff etc.)
>> = . the plethora of minor conveniences it offers that c-ts-mode
>= ;>=C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn't, at least not yet, such as much more elaborat= e
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0customizations of indentation and electric= behavior
>>
>> I'm not even sure yet w= hether I myself will switch.=C2=A0 I will give the
>> c-ts-= mode a lot of leeway and credit, but I don't know yet what will
>> be the outcome.

>+1. It=E2=80=99ll = be a long way until c-ts-mode can be comparable to c-mode.

>Yuan

+1 here too. With some additiona= l comments. If memory serves, Eli asked for "user" feedback. Here= you are ;-)

I'm using Emacs on different Linu= xes, macOS and Windows. With the exception of Windows, I'm on master fo= r my day-to-day work, which gives credit to the work behind it :-)

I use it for programming (mainly shell, Python and YAML, i= ncluding eglot for Python and the 2-3 golang lines I write) both locally an= d remotely (that implies TRAMP), documenting and producing slides (LaTEX an= d org-mode). On top of that, I have company-mode activated.

<= /div>
On Linux, I have native-compilation, but not on macOS; probably b= ecause I didn't have the time when I started using it.=C2=A0Now, becaus= e in my setup I scarcely notice the difference, I have lost interest and I&= #39;m even thinking of reverting and disabling native-compilation... I'= ll tell you in a couple of months...

Now, have I t= ried tree-sitter? Yes... I got it running on Linux. But the fuzz was not wo= rth the gain. I saw from second one what yansippets, tramp, eglot (you name= it) was offering and I decided to go for it (BTW, I'm so happy that eg= lot is is part of Emacs now). I don't see it in tree-sitter.=C2=A0

so, I know this is not exactly FOSS compliant, but it = is part of the experience that may shy away users outside FOSS operating sy= stems:

In non-free operating systems, it is gettin= g more difficult to get compiled third-party libraries downloaded and runni= ng. So, I don't anticipate it will easy with the tree-sitter DLLs or DY= LIBs if you get them from the outside world. This means that you will need = to compile them on your system to work with them. And that will be yet anot= her argument for sys-admins to ban Emacs from the "professional" = programming environment. And I think that's really sad...
My .2 cents, /PA

PS: I'd rather se= e yasnippets moving into Emacs... IMvHO that's part of a *nice* user-ex= perience that makes Emacs appealing :-)
--
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwo= rtet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Geor= g Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
un= it-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run a = leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

--000000000000e0bc8a05f4f4c0df--