From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>,
EMACS development team <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
nicola.manca85@gmail.com, "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>,
Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>,
Jack Kamm <jackkamm@gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28"
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:13:58 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAO2hHWbmK7uS-xiKJHJCAHh1HncdcH=wR9UpBFfLycogBFhAEw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <fd0c3472-f87e-d167-2b03-7892a36176aa@yandex.ru>
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Starting point for a concrete proposal:
* Rename undo in simple.el to something descriptive.
** Perhaps undo-sequence or undo-branching?
* Create an alias or dispatcher undo that calls the renamed simple.el
undo by default.
* Create a customize option (or similar) to allow the user to choose
between the current simple.el undo method, the "undo/redo-only" method
bindings, and perhaps undo-tree.
* Change the default action of C-z, at least in gui frames, to call the
above undo rather than suspend frame.
** Also add a binding for C-Z (aka C-S-z) to call redo-only. I'm unsure if
this should be bound to something else if the "simple.el undo" method is
chosen, or if an alternative binding for C-Z would be better there.
* Add a user option to revert this change for C-z. I'm unclear if this is
better implemented by changing the binding or by adding it as an option to
the dispatcher concept above, perhaps something like
"undo-or-suspend-frame".
Reasoning:
I believe that people using emacs in a gui context tend to have a
system-wide method for switching between active windows/applications, and
they don't use the C-z binding for it. This is certainly true of the
people I see today who don't use emacs, and was true of the new and
non-new, non-expert emacs users I used to see often. It was usually true of
expert emacs users that I knew personally that they rebound C-z.
This gets us an intuitive keybinding for gui computer users of various
types that doesn't hide their window (when I used to work in user support
way back when, we *frequently* found users surprised by "my emacs
disappeared"), and it connects a very common keybinding (muscle memory for
a vast body of users) to a familiar/powerful decision point for emacs.
The cost is the loss of suspend-frame on C-z, which seems most likely to be
an issue for either people who are very capable of reverting it, and for
people who are very used to the control-z behavior inside a tty. I have
personally spent a *lot* of time using emacs in tty-only environments with
C-z rebound, and preferred it that way. Anecdotally, people who spend a lot
of time in emacs inside screen or tmux prefer to rebind C-z away from
suspend, but of course tastes vary.
I'm sure there are issues with this, even setting aside the very strong
small-c-conservatism of long-time emacs users on this list; what are they?
Thanks,
~Chad
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-13 22:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-09-07 16:45 A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Nicola Manca
2020-09-07 18:08 ` Ergus
[not found] ` <86d02x2yg0.fsf@gmail.com>
2020-09-07 19:59 ` about fido-mode Ergus
2020-09-07 20:44 ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-07 21:09 ` Ergus
2020-09-07 21:18 ` andrés ramírez
[not found] ` <87mu21wd3f.fsf@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <20200907214104.kapyivsh5y62wcl5@Ergus>
[not found] ` <865z8p2qay.fsf@gmail.com>
2020-09-08 8:08 ` Ergus
2020-09-08 9:06 ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-08 9:26 ` Ergus
2020-09-08 16:14 ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-08 16:25 ` Ergus
2020-09-09 2:44 ` andrés ramírez
2020-09-07 20:05 ` A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 20:34 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 20:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 21:11 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 21:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-07 21:39 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-07 21:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 2:54 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-08 11:10 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 6:18 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 11:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 14:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 14:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 15:14 ` Amin Bandali
2020-09-08 15:53 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-08 16:18 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-08 16:28 ` Ergus
2020-09-08 15:27 ` Óscar Fuentes
2020-09-08 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 15:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 16:13 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-08 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 18:00 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-09 3:44 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 19:01 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-09 19:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 21:43 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 15:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-08 21:31 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-10 7:23 ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-10 14:52 ` Howard Melman
2020-09-10 15:01 ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-10 16:43 ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2020-09-09 5:03 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-09 8:35 ` Ergus
2020-09-09 8:41 ` tomas
2020-09-09 10:00 ` Ergus
2020-09-09 10:36 ` tomas
2020-09-09 13:49 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-09 14:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 15:54 ` tomas
2020-09-10 2:38 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 12:10 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 4:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 18:39 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-10 12:28 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-09-09 13:17 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-10 2:40 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11 10:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 11:29 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 11:40 ` Ergus
2020-09-11 14:53 ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-11 15:03 ` Ergus
2020-09-11 15:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 20:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 13:02 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-12 13:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:13 ` chad [this message]
2020-09-13 22:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-15 4:34 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-15 6:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-11 12:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 15:08 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 20:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11 13:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-11 14:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-11 14:59 ` Jack Kamm
2020-09-12 12:55 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-11 13:15 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-09-11 14:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-08 16:37 ` Custom Et Al: Build-Up The Underlying Platform was " T.V Raman
2020-09-08 20:40 ` Daniel Martín
2020-09-09 3:51 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 8:48 ` Tim Cross
2020-09-09 15:53 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-09 16:36 ` Ergus
2020-09-09 16:41 ` T.V Raman
2020-09-09 17:05 ` Ergus
2020-09-09 14:32 ` T.V Raman
2020-09-09 18:44 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 4:11 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-07 18:16 ` Ergus
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