From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Builder, a build system integration for Emacs Date: Thu, 25 May 2023 09:16:04 -0400 Message-ID: References: <95980ffc-86e7-ad54-4a20-539d8c6ea5d0@mailo.com> <3f68f4bc-d426-0bcc-1329-674c12b29386@mailo.com> <76e12f7c-335f-476b-ffb3-fd8e8e4ab5d0@mailo.com> <87pm6rx4ea.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn0ytefw.fsf@gmail.com> <83h6s0n95y.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4b36905fc846c02" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25155"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gregory Heytings , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 25 15:16:55 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q2Apr-0006KZ-01 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 25 May 2023 15:16:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ApK-0005tO-8A; Thu, 25 May 2023 09:16:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ApI-0005rt-8t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 May 2023 09:16:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ApG-0001mk-FU; Thu, 25 May 2023 09:16:19 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-75b14216386so48766085a.0; Thu, 25 May 2023 06:16:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1685020576; x=1687612576; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3TNgWYPZIUlC6lyzYXPi4Z/YQakfsKouFx4QyHXkbQs=; b=DDrJqqBIjURYmr+2W2DmAXORLcMnrop4qq6z4SQEhvZqz3C/ipskmp8hSzmZypC76Y tOpHHXCn+peNMisrcEdL1MO97wTaoZ+kvRGCwuqmdiY331/W0Y84G90B8MAaybDz5ypX uWOdeCxIeVnSNZrKpAVE6EqMD3ZTuC7a+6FcwNq53Pg1wynU9Yn6lG9kWy8H+FlgojP4 pROglGkQou/C9reffYOe5SYo8DPtGvMXd07ZFzh8KnPL3Vbd0Rr0czl78VK4vmsXljsc icsvGexxADKFf/9o8m+TFZigBs1pKe31JTOh0Nr/sboH0ZVMQB4iBIDr0kE0/ZwK4r+l ss2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685020576; x=1687612576; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3TNgWYPZIUlC6lyzYXPi4Z/YQakfsKouFx4QyHXkbQs=; b=EWD6RsWfI+8JKHmFoDqIuHnwdQr2MV9dUdhzS+u4rULRItok2/EKTnRp4bUZDJ96jz ZumIsyFo+2LyQcTzZVeSn/4Iu3VrSktiyxUEDBlqQHEY7qWPvMg9bkQhRw4HFI1YPZMl o5h1lIWoWBQD+HMT/Vi0vmBu7+kYN9GwBzJjt/X7hpdxYgkDDdwsgoHDLh6TgPQI1TNh WNpug6fr51U26lsEwy7A0oTe2bmUppq8jdITfKVfFwZUPM0w5B50jvRG3s5tkeyPrqgE qL0dJyu7LB4cTQrT1dkS4uf2ckDiLI/mzPzaoAIElF4klRYQU8WsiF0mcRVJ1C+jGb4V ij2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwNwwaHiTvfxRrCpPLqlARmvldkVo3nYU6AcZ+PUHttLiylJZz5 aNptNEQLc/gdlJ0ux0wm27Dhylwj17ehYZUZwY9LhjnP X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6myls8BkhCBKIQFBc6CrYuCMJjnQfj6NqwWNjJ4G2lfu8N/7v2nuxztATQ0NKTdar24K+445OoD+JVQCGuaBc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:184:b0:3f4:fa05:ff61 with SMTP id s4-20020a05622a018400b003f4fa05ff61mr30718596qtw.59.1685020576362; Thu, 25 May 2023 06:16:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83h6s0n95y.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::735; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x735.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306331 Archived-At: --000000000000e4b36905fc846c02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 3:49=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > FWIW, I don't trust tools that "do all that for me". When building a > package that needs some prerequisite, I want to: > [...] > This is laudable but also requires effort, sometimes non trivial effort; witness the extra hoops required to get functional tree-sitter "support" inside emacs. Cargo is a (fairly slight, actually) evolution of the strategy I first saw back in the mid-90's with CPAN (the "Comprehensive Perl Archive Network"), through CTAN (similar for TeX), ruby, python, etc. I do agree that the default setup of cargo tends a little too much towards DWIMishness for my taste, but it's not hard to turn that down AND it removes many of the most annoying parts of library version management/hell. In this particular case, unless I'm misreading, the OP is suggesting that a generic "builder" layer could include cargo as one of the many build management systems that is widely used to create (usually libre) software, rather than suggesting it as a model that either Emacs or the FSF should follow. I hope that helps, ~Chad --000000000000e4b36905fc846c02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 3:49=E2=80=AF= AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> w= rote:

FWIW, I don't trust tools that "do all that for me".=C2=A0 Wh= en building a
package that needs some prerequisite, I want to:
[...]
<= div>
This is laudable but also requires effort, sometimes non= trivial effort; witness the extra hoops required to get functional tree-si= tter "support" inside emacs. Cargo is a (fairly slight, actually)= evolution of the strategy I first saw back in the mid-90's with CPAN (= the "Comprehensive Perl Archive Network"), through CTAN (similar = for TeX), ruby, python, etc.=C2=A0

I do agree that= the default setup of cargo tends a little too much towards DWIMishness=C2= =A0for my taste, but it's not hard to turn that down AND it removes man= y of the most annoying parts of library version management/hell.
=
In this particular case, unless I'm misreading, the OP i= s suggesting that a generic "builder" layer could include cargo a= s one of the many build management systems that is widely used to create (u= sually libre) software, rather than suggesting it as a model that either Em= acs or the FSF should follow.=C2=A0

I hope that he= lps,
~Chad
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