From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: High-res Customize icons Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:23:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87k127fd03.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200423.061101.167407195680152265.wl@gnu.org> <83r1wecl04.fsf@gnu.org> <20200423.194951.1783852521294813912.wl@gnu.org> <834ktac89t.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e77e9905a3fd899d" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="17880"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Juri Linkov , Yuan Fu , =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment_Pit=2DClaudel?= , EMACS development team , Yuri Khan To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 01:25:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRlDU-0004Vf-Ci for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 01:25:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45006 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRlDT-0005Fx-EN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:25:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45278) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRlCI-0004OU-Ka for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:23:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRlCH-0004NH-R0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:23:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]:42114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRlC6-00041W-9N; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:23:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id i16so4049637ybq.9; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:23:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xTaWIuYY03CLkcIUNeSPkLnGyxK/+3eoVyxXxU+r3hE=; b=B58dq1ONg5E4yILCTLBMtuhyPBQINCd9qxuJYeGq9ezdRTaujodoZDIg9z/FOvhGsA cj99OudkcdYyiu/Ha9GLM/1AupT1oZ/zGCt0/+yDbOjSufUPnj2H76TEfyKfEepSyloA UGK6A0ObAUzox5oLELhu3RXpDMgbT3Fzct6SouZABlvSexmrt95KWZbEA7quJiDE/YXy Azxm/WeWly+a1V1+4q30eEBR9Embh80Oy9kDXib/f8EdM31GOAKEP5Ked0kLLnbcdpw5 NGfB6Q7EnOxG6ffcC5qPSfGYJtYyRwNu6vQJd3YbO9xmJhQbe5v9jUvuKSwhU1Vi5FXn NhNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xTaWIuYY03CLkcIUNeSPkLnGyxK/+3eoVyxXxU+r3hE=; b=jUIa5KV2O375PtWMK4Dn25Fdgo44bnU27e67oTOQ7Bk/jI6eqJJCRrE78ZkZzcnupH oF7cNH33MNpp9Ik53hE0tVRarzlioRyvHQzLzbYLPhKJI2+BL7QK3VHYGD6HawwE2+4i LnE7kuUVE3+RjRaLfnkLd6yXz4bjOrvPi97q3rZ3dfOOsW0ghJzOblVKwWkYeNxVNpuN bdCcB/mWR8sbMEl7zs7wvSMNitFOMtwBjQTV3CziJS0/t2Zr3w0/gus7hHu24dE2PkWP 53or0xvmtAXP8Ef6lCP7gBdC7fQGO3ca70gdCk92O45sqxvG0J6SpExqB5Zd1xJu9qq5 6Qow== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua2SnFtvq/XTW4Aol1ezarxkI+V7fn+uryUPaV1Wp9tAF/vqMZT CymmvveRy9ytLnalSvqrXxkXBAIMyFDus7oN2o/WvfcbccI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKXuymbLXNSLrfSef6FEbLLXhMZ4G8XtrqfXOeoL+7W8sXurik7WTVYb68x4vb6MF2vn4mqJ3RZyKobpcbXKOU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:664d:: with SMTP id z13mr11711507ybm.457.1587684219255; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:23:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834ktac89t.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247641 Archived-At: --000000000000e77e9905a3fd899d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > I think it is a good idea. Today, OpenType fonts are standard on all > > major platforms; > > That's not exactly why I asked whether it's a good idea. I'm asking > whether it's a good idea to use characters as if they were small > images. That is not what fonts were designed for, and that is > definitely not what font-selection code in Emacs was designed for. > I know that you don't like the idea of using fonts for icons and emoji inside emacs. I would ask you to reconsider, for two (and a half) reasons: 1.) This support us ubiquitous in the "modern" toolchains used by new developers, especially in ubiquitous real-time chat systems, internet fora, and the like. Anecdotally, I know emacs' lack of support for emoji (with the additional refinement of support being added to and then removed from emacs under macOS) has caused multiple smart coders to abandon emacs very quickly. 2.) The all-the-icons package was created to consolidate multiple packages that were installing these fonts for their own uses, especially packages that update the mode line and the various file browsers (which is why all-the-icons uses those screenshots specifically), and also MUA code. Put another way, people are very likely to use some of these fonts inside emacs anyway. The difference is in how much effort it takes -- whether they see it mostly in packages like Spacemacs, Doom, and mu4e, or in "plain emacs". 2.5) These fonts are very popular amongst developers who use "fancy prompt" packages for their shell, so that their prompt includes things like git status, python/docker/ruby/etc env markers, battery indicators, and similar. These features are pretty young (compared to most of us, anyway), but are nigh-ubiquitous among newer developers I've seen; the features are both built into many new shells and have spawned a surprisingly large variety of "cool prompt" packages for a wide variety of shells (including several for bash). I mention this as evidence that installing fonts is not at all a high bar for most developers. Anyway, I th9ink you understand by now that I dislike this idea, and > prefer to use image files. Let's leave the characters and their > glyphs for what they were intended: text. > I fear/believe that the foals of those horses have already built themselves new multicolored, ideogram-based barns out in the world. :-) ~Chad P.S. ...and now I notice that this is pretty much the only communication medium I regularly use that doesn't automatically convert that smiley into an emoji... ...because I choose to have it off for this mailing list. --000000000000e77e9905a3fd899d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM Eli = Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> I think it is a good idea.=C2=A0 Today, OpenType fonts are standard on= all
> major platforms;

That's not exactly why I asked whether it's a good idea.=C2=A0 I= 9;m asking
whether it's a good idea to use characters as if they were small
images.=C2=A0 That is not what fonts were designed for, and that is
definitely not what font-selection code in Emacs was designed for.

I know that you don't like the idea of usin= g fonts for icons and emoji inside emacs. I would ask you to reconsider, fo= r two (and a half) reasons:

1.) This support us ub= iquitous in the "modern" toolchains used by new developers, espec= ially in ubiquitous real-time chat systems, internet fora, and the like. An= ecdotally, I know emacs' lack of support for emoji (with the additional= refinement of support being added to and then removed from emacs under mac= OS) has caused multiple smart coders to abandon emacs very quickly.

2.) The all-the-icons package was created to consolidate = multiple packages that were installing these fonts for their own uses, espe= cially packages that update the mode line and the various file browsers (wh= ich is why all-the-icons uses those screenshots specifically), and also MUA= code. Put another way, people are very likely to use some of these fonts i= nside emacs anyway. The difference is in how much effort it takes -- whethe= r they see it mostly in packages like Spacemacs, Doom, and mu4e, or in &quo= t;plain emacs".

2.5) These fonts are very pop= ular amongst developers who use "fancy prompt" packages for their= shell, so that their prompt includes things like git status, python/docker= /ruby/etc env markers, battery indicators, and similar. These features are = pretty young (compared to most of us, anyway), but are nigh-ubiquitous amon= g newer developers I've seen; the features are both built into many new= shells and have spawned a surprisingly large variety of "cool prompt&= quot; packages for a wide variety of shells (including several for bash). I= mention this as evidence that installing fonts is not at all a high bar fo= r most developers.

Anyway, I th9ink you understand by now that I dislike this idea, and
prefer to use image files.=C2=A0 Let's leave the characters and their glyphs for what they were intended: text.

I fear/believe that the foals of those horses have already built themsel= ves new multicolored, ideogram-based barns out in the world. :-)
=
~Chad
P.S. ...and now I notice that this is pretty= much the only communication medium I regularly use that doesn't automa= tically convert that smiley into an emoji... ...because I choose to have it= off for this mailing list.=C2=A0

--000000000000e77e9905a3fd899d--