From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:29:18 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87v8d0iqa5.fsf@posteo.net> <87cyz3vaws.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006cf26e06043a8c0d" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23650"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jim Porter , ahyatt@gmail.com, Ihor Radchenko , rms@gnu.org To: emacs-tangents@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 31 18:29:45 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qbkYC-0005va-SS for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 18:29:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbkY5-0000hK-RJ; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:29:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbkY4-0000eg-EU for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:29:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbkY0-0005ZF-TE; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:29:36 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-58d41109351so29415137b3.1; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693499371; x=1694104171; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a1m0eewP0tkVKpLITf2RPxMwNifUJdghdiJVoHo+gBo=; b=n7ZRiQVWtZckmL0lg5NcGeXINN/ePas2DhB8dOrzAsugQz+Ac/O5o+xjrP5fvv0hg/ gkXgiJUjZSMfcmnT4AXpHllnKNvqBj1kEZbvca2iAz2rNV+Ld4EpWKyu/yFochlacblz Dyqg3EgEnGKksButFHKT2DX4rouLb0sQ2860YAwdeS49P7FCMsqsx1VWU1G7Z2XTMM81 S0YpuTDmsQBMYAY6lnbupXhhzT0pVYfgITsJmSQiVKgpONA2o4y1ZU5npOk5G4JM0ibs MXte41cxDlkQrRU8Lp7wQdriKfbDNUmBxJpGFFxqLopM7QmiANyLQr9NMO6iSAcYrpVc ZgFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693499371; x=1694104171; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=a1m0eewP0tkVKpLITf2RPxMwNifUJdghdiJVoHo+gBo=; b=kc4DvOaAb4hF0oJj8nYwvqorz2lYxzm0b8SPrXM0cRpU72fIn3KlkPIoCW9DnWTpta WY4pkQd6wIT+i8HQushEIDwjI1mP4IBV12lkrZLr5xUxhmIYDnxw2Tk/8Yii32+SlhUp 5sUADRzAhNrBQic4tGCRHD+Fqy3FvD/HbeMIEYYGJPc4DvhLiiZd+VxQo4It5eJAFTdo voMWOUVxhUWpJcJ1xU6y2YvB17cXDY7HicPUcFR7N64BKehkUj0sJZBzgJEwnQAPvGLc Kc4sde+B4AFYYjmu0AxJejnd7VCzJI3mSWAsrjo7KtP9suLDreaGCbENcSq5GkHCdo67 hTCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxqgtBPo4fmJDFWiNw1vcm+LaTrP5+UNSu1E+xb+4ZF0WdA0zkl QG53l7tr+urv0ES3G+YS9c6dtYBmr+9oM49x6UZou9Fh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHccL8EfF6H2bBFeKGDrBJ2XuOO1zt4HlWDBqdad3Oa1ikuxx+cgmRxFsjRltQpirJ2/+Be0PmSdhQrwZg0RKg= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:d9d4:0:b0:589:a4c7:ee40 with SMTP id b203-20020a0dd9d4000000b00589a4c7ee40mr285345ywe.2.1693499370827; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87cyz3vaws.fsf@localhost> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x1133.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:1043 Archived-At: --0000000000006cf26e06043a8c0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 5:06=E2=80=AFAM Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > As for LLMs that run on servers, they are a different issue entirely. > > They are all SaaSS (Service as a Software Substitute), and SaaSS is > > always unjust. > > > > See https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html > > for explanation. > > I do not fully agree here. [...] > Thus, for many users (owning less powerful computers) LLMs as a service > are going to be SaaS, not SaaSS. (Given that the SaaS LLM has free > licence and users who choose to buy the necessary hardware retain their > freedom to run the same LLM on their hardware.) > It's a somewhat subtle, gnarly point, and I didn't find a way to express it as well as Ihor Radchenko here, but I will add: the ability for a free software-loving user to run their own SaaS is both increasing and decreasing in ease recently. On the one hand, it's difficult these days to run a personal email service and not get trapped by the shifting myriad of overlapping spam/fraud/monopoly `protection' features, at least if you want to regularly send email to a wide variety of users. On the other hand, it's increasingly viable to have a hand-held machine that's a tiny fraction of a space-cadet keyboard running (mostly; binary blobs are a pernicious evil) free software that easily connects back to one's own free-software "workstation" for medium and large jobs, even while avoiding "the cloud trap", as it were. (Such things have been a long-time hobby/interest of mine, dating back before my time as a professional programmer. They're still not common, but they're getting increasingly moreso; native Android support for emacs, as one example, will likely help.) For large AI models specifically: there are many users for whom it is not practical to _actually_ recreate the model from scratch everywhere they might want to use it. It is important for computing freedom that such recreations be *possible*, but it will be very limiting to insist that everyone who wants to use such services actually do so, in a manner that seems to me to be very similar to not insisting that every potential emacs user actually compile their own. In this case there's the extra wrinkle that the actual details of recreating the currently-most-interesting large language models involves both _gigantic_ amounts of resources and also a fairly large amount of not-directly-reproducible randomness involved. It might be worth further consideration. Just now, re-reading this seems like a topic better suited to emacs-tangents or even gnu-misc-discuss, so I'm changing the CC there. Apologies if this causes an accidental fork. I hope that helps, ~Chad --0000000000006cf26e06043a8c0d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 5:06=E2=80=AF= AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@poste= o.net> wrote:
Richard Stallman <= rms@gnu.org> writes:

> As for LLMs that run on servers, they are a different issue entirely.<= br> > They are all SaaSS (Service as a Software Substitute), and SaaSS is > always unjust.
>
> See https://gnu.org/philosophy= /who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
> for explanation.

I do not fully agree here. [...]
Thus, for many users (owning less powerful computers) LLMs as a service
are going to be SaaS, not SaaSS. (Given that the SaaS LLM has free
licence and users who choose to buy the necessary hardware retain their
freedom to run the same LLM on their hardware.)

=C2=A0It's a somewhat subtle, gnarly point, and I didn't f= ind a way to express it as well as Ihor Radchenko here, but I will add: the= ability for a free software-loving user to run their own SaaS is both incr= easing and decreasing in ease recently. On the one hand, it's difficult= these days to run a personal email service and not get trapped by the shif= ting myriad of overlapping spam/fraud/monopoly `protection' features, a= t least if you want to regularly send email to a wide variety of users. On = the other hand, it's increasingly viable to have a hand-held machine th= at's a tiny fraction of a space-cadet keyboard running (mostly; binary = blobs are a pernicious evil) free software that easily connects back to one= 's own free-software "workstation" for medium and large jobs,= even while avoiding "the cloud trap", as it were.=C2=A0

(Such things have been a long-time hobby/interest of mine,= dating back before my time as a professional programmer. They're still= not common, but they're getting increasingly moreso; native Android su= pport for emacs, as one example, will likely help.)

For large AI models specifically: there are many users for whom it is not= practical to _actually_ recreate the model from scratch everywhere they mi= ght want to use it. It is important for computing freedom that such recreat= ions be *possible*, but it will be very limiting to insist that everyone wh= o wants to use such services actually do so, in a manner that seems to me t= o be very similar to not insisting that every potential emacs user actually= compile their own. In this case there's the extra wrinkle that the act= ual details of recreating the currently-most-interesting large language mod= els involves both _gigantic_ amounts of resources and also a fairly large a= mount of not-directly-reproducible randomness involved. It might be worth f= urther consideration.

Just now, re-reading this se= ems like a topic better suited to emacs-tangents or even gnu-misc-discuss, = so I'm changing the CC there. Apologies if this causes an accidental fo= rk.

I hope that helps,
~Chad
= --0000000000006cf26e06043a8c0d--