From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Display of undisplayable characters: \U01F3A8 instead of diamond Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2022 16:39:29 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87edx28cl1.fsf@disroot.org> <83y1v7w6eu.fsf@gnu.org> <2f302d1c3966849477b3@heytings.org> <83mtbiovzr.fsf@gnu.org> <83a67hq3l7.fsf@gnu.org> <878rn1zk52.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1dbb305e7b7ba15" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36357"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-tangents@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 02 22:40:05 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oUDSN-0009DK-D3 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 22:40:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45024 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oUDSL-0005ab-Nv for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 16:40:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58532) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oUDS7-0005aM-H1 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 16:39:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::535]:41758) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oUDS5-0005mI-NO for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 16:39:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id r4so4140588edi.8 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 13:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=PK/c7AvIwtk4HiU1x1iCwOun0Dd8UzBDe/Hk6bNa3/M=; b=JWBMd1KzV3pr4z1z3L8LxPqQp8FOUSzlP0UEa69tUynJEw3OhbBchpHmfQbQpwaMwj VRTO3KITRYjYlCXXdIBNyOMwbGmQQ58chN1iMh0djBOmVcQpjmc3oh3JwzPakZNzr8mF qzmi6pXBeBbWwqrU3wlZnZuawjDyv2X5+xMao4VI5a2jfRCWv8yBaxUk3Ne2jWl2d/c+ w85cnZVuFfkZmjvNXqEKUhxDgtXjDhqw9Ev/4+4Uq1lT3c+r00nCb/p6u7H/aVfiz49l cJNTopXOn+FEkSA5Vr9Sem4sPYfwm7CvAg6XEBtP6OFBRQXXaXzVl67Zl7JW0iFd/ixa uuKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=PK/c7AvIwtk4HiU1x1iCwOun0Dd8UzBDe/Hk6bNa3/M=; b=sWkATwv+/jpFvpsAFbGsGMxhnj65e19DisPkjGYJFM09sikE/3xCYZPif08qYYQred phI7+lFrRA7oMaBMrJK/NFxG5DBSMK8T9/0hVGyoDYcthMtgQyLbmJv5nNThU0C43cPr kb8JDaDbHoAMkuyYJdu45crSr+NRMSYxTZo5urdgyjp5bSJX7HZz0sNYHjBbCgdhJU5X p5z6pbcye1lTct/sUlzZSQOcc0tHUXCseodJPHrR0xyQPsFbGHNJE+IYQqABIc2Yifqo 7VPz8Bdnaz0cH2JyqLUbcfSNQ/aksxsGkfE1ub53/XioENj85exE1D6TjvyiahNHhYDP COEA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo1EIHyvGRN0A/5+ujFIUjoA3MemaBSK0e297MUJXb6+rFpa/Fzs QdT4u6RJN5Q/s0DYKAaPmEKwvNgsaQ6nPxH8SInCHPNb X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7QCMsewn7LK4TJkavv+GVnT3VaR7yONmZKLWqlLcIubhkaGQcYzMNCqxoxOh/xVen8fEqeWpaUiDvBBYE4/No= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1706:b0:448:1b9f:d8bd with SMTP id y6-20020a056402170600b004481b9fd8bdmr26174547edu.397.1662151182898; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 13:39:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878rn1zk52.fsf@dataswamp.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::535; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x535.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:906 Archived-At: --000000000000d1dbb305e7b7ba15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 3:25 PM Emanuel Berg wrote: > > I understand (academically) that once someone has adapted > > themselves to a particular set of bugs, shortcomings, and > > limitations > > But here the bug was actually better from our perspective ... > The bug was better in that the undefined behavior from sending known-bad data to the console hasn't yet caused you trouble that you've identified. Everyone (who's looked at the code) acknowledges that it was doing the wrong thing. The fact that the bug didn't hurt you and you got used to it is exactly what I meant by "adapted themselves". What the other user (RMS, in this case) _wanted_ to do was to use a console (not window system) emacs to look at a range of characters that extends beyond ASCII. The specific implementations he was using did that right some of the time and wrong some of the time. When it was wrong, it failed in a certain way. He adapted himself to that failure. The alternative that emacs-devel is trying to establish (via experiments, etc/PROBLEMS changes, and perhaps code patches) will make the system fail less often -- that is, do what the user wants more often. The argument in question is basically "Don't make the software do what the user wants more often if it changes away from the bugs that are already familiar to me", especially when that argument is expressed *in the middle of fixing the problem*, as a discouragement from fixing the problem for all users, then we've arrived at "That's horrifying." ala XKCD 1172. ~Chad --000000000000d1dbb305e7b7ba15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 3:25 PM Emanue= l Berg <incal@dataswamp.org&g= t; wrote:
> I= understand (academically) that once someone has adapted
> themselves to a particular set of bugs, shortcomings, and
> limitations

But here the bug was actually better from our perspective ...

The bug was better in that the undefined behavior fr= om sending known-bad data to the console hasn't yet caused you trouble = that you've identified. Everyone (who's looked at the code) acknowl= edges that it was doing the wrong thing. The fact that the bug didn't h= urt you and you got used to it is exactly what I meant by "adapted the= mselves".=C2=A0

What the other user (RMS, in = this case) _wanted_ to do was to use a console (not window=C2=A0system) ema= cs to look at a range of characters that extends beyond ASCII. The specific= implementations he was using did that right some of the time and wrong som= e of the time. When it was wrong, it failed in a certain way. He adapted hi= mself to that failure.

The alternative that emacs-= devel is trying to establish (via experiments, etc/PROBLEMS changes, and pe= rhaps code patches) will make the system fail less often -- that is, do wha= t the user wants more often. The argument in question is basically "Do= n't make the software do what the user wants more often if it changes a= way from the bugs that are already familiar to me", especially when th= at argument is expressed *in the middle of fixing the problem*, as a discou= ragement from fixing the problem for all users, then we've arrived at &= quot;That's horrifying." ala XKCD 1172.

~= Chad=C2=A0
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