* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation
@ 2018-08-29 17:29 Chris Shea
2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Chris Shea @ 2018-08-29 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 32578
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Hello,
This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events
documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive.
Thanks,
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From f7d8dc3b6be5d317b963b587066237ccf3368691 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Christopher Shea <cmshea@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:19:19 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] Remove unnecessary language
---
doc/lispref/ChangeLog.1 | 4 ++++
doc/lispref/commands.texi | 9 ++++-----
2 files changed, 8 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/lispref/ChangeLog.1 b/doc/lispref/ChangeLog.1
index 42240ae..8294da1 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/ChangeLog.1
+++ b/doc/lispref/ChangeLog.1
@@ -1,3 +1,7 @@
+2018-08-29 Christopher Shea <cmshea@gmail.com>
+
+ * commands.texi (Drag Events): Remove joke.
+
2015-03-29 Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
* objects.texi (Equality Predicates): Fix typo in example.
diff --git a/doc/lispref/commands.texi b/doc/lispref/commands.texi
index 0753d6f..303967b 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/commands.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/commands.texi
@@ -1480,12 +1480,11 @@ handle), @code{up} (the up arrow at one end of the scroll bar), or
@cindex drag event
@cindex mouse drag event
-With Emacs, you can have a drag event without even changing your
-clothes. A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user presses a mouse
-button and then moves the mouse to a different character position before
+A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user presses a mouse button
+and then moves the mouse to a different character position before
releasing the button. Like all mouse events, drag events are
-represented in Lisp as lists. The lists record both the starting mouse
-position and the final position, like this:
+represented in Lisp as lists. The lists record both the starting
+mouse position and the final position, like this:
@example
(@var{event-type}
--
2.18.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-29 17:29 bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Chris Shea @ 2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski 2018-08-30 7:49 ` Colin Baxter 2018-08-30 20:08 ` Filipp Gunbin 2018-08-31 1:23 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2018-08-30 7:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: 32578 On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events > documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not informative. BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is nothing about "drag events" in the book.) If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy called "political correctness". Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2018-08-30 7:49 ` Colin Baxter 2018-08-30 9:13 ` Phil Sainty 2018-08-30 13:51 ` Chris Shea 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2018-08-30 7:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski; +Cc: Chris Shea, , 32578 >>>>> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes: > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hello, >> >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative >> and inclusive. > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not > informative. > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy > called "political correctness". > Best, > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, maybe emacs.devel? Best wishes ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 7:49 ` Colin Baxter @ 2018-08-30 9:13 ` Phil Sainty 2018-08-30 13:51 ` Chris Shea 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Phil Sainty @ 2018-08-30 9:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: 32578 On 2018-08-30 19:49, Colin Baxter wrote: > a joke is hardly a bug. Suggestions for improving the documentation absolutely belong here. "This list is for bug reports, feature requests, and suggestions for improving GNU Emacs." -- https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 7:49 ` Colin Baxter 2018-08-30 9:13 ` Phil Sainty @ 2018-08-30 13:51 ` Chris Shea 2018-08-31 6:08 ` Marcin Borkowski 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Chris Shea @ 2018-08-30 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: m43cap; +Cc: mbork, 32578 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2682 bytes --] On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote: > >>>>> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes: > > > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> Hello, > >> > >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the > >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative > >> and inclusive. > > > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember > > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the > > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes > > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems > > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended > > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and > > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to > > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though > > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. > > > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not > > informative. > > > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics > > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into > > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less > > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is > > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) > > > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, > > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy > > called "political correctness". > > > Best, > > > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl > > I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a > bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, > maybe emacs.devel? > > Best wishes > To Marcin's points, I didn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of jokes you tell among your friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your reasoning be the same if the diff was the other way? Would you be arguing to add this joke in because you deem it inoffensive? That it adds information to the documentation? That the documentation for a text editor is the appropriate place to make the effort to add a joke (a joke which operates merely on the level of "this one word looks like this other word") as a bulwark against "political correctness"? To Colin, I sent this patch to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org because I read the Sending-Patches entry of the Emacs manual as saying that all patches should be sent to that address. I may follow up with emacs-devel later. Yours, [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3625 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 13:51 ` Chris Shea @ 2018-08-31 6:08 ` Marcin Borkowski 2018-09-02 3:13 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2018-08-31 6:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: m43cap, 32578 On 2018-08-30, at 15:51, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote: > >> >>>>> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes: >> >> > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the >> >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative >> >> and inclusive. >> >> > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember >> > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the >> > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes >> > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems >> > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended >> > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and >> > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to >> > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though >> > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. >> >> > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not >> > informative. >> >> > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics >> > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into >> > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less >> > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is >> > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) >> >> > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, >> > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy >> > called "political correctness". >> >> > Best, >> >> > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl >> >> I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a >> bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, >> maybe emacs.devel? >> >> Best wishes >> > > To Marcin's points, I didn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of "Unwelcoming" seemed to me a softer version of "offensive". Sorry if I'm mistaken, I'm not a native English speaker. > jokes you tell among your friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your Quite the opposite: if I'm not bothered by this joke, and I'm bothered by similarly offensive/unwelcoming jokes about me and/or groups of people I belong to, someone could argue that I have double standards. Such an argument need not be correct in general, but it might make people ignore my email. > reasoning be the same if the diff was the other way? Would you be arguing > to add this joke in because you deem it inoffensive? That it adds > information to the documentation? That the documentation for a text editor > is the appropriate place to make the effort to add a joke (a joke which > operates merely on the level of "this one word looks like this other word") > as a bulwark against "political correctness"? As I mentioned, I'm coauthoring a "serious" book on "serious" mathematics. Many a commit exists for the purpose of adding jokes (though not ones about drag events), pop culture references etc. Though it does not add _information_, it adds _value_. And I don't see how docs for a text editor might be inappropriate place for jokes/puns (unless they make the docs difficult to understand for a non-native ENglish speaker, but this is another story). Even if the reason was not "as a bulwark against 'political correctness'" (which would strengthen the argument in my book), I still think the effort would be worth it. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-31 6:08 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2018-09-02 3:13 ` Richard Stallman 2018-09-02 3:49 ` Chris Shea 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-09-02 3:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski; +Cc: cmshea, m43cap, 32578 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It is pertinent that the "drag events" joke does not speak negatively about any group of people. Rationally speaking, it is not offensive to anyone. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-09-02 3:13 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-09-02 3:49 ` Chris Shea 2018-09-03 6:26 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Chris Shea @ 2018-09-02 3:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: m43cap, Marcin Borkowski, 32578 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1317 bytes --] On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 11:14 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > It is pertinent that the "drag events" joke does not speak negatively > about any group of people. Rationally speaking, it is not offensive > to anyone. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > Oh boy. I never said anything about the joke being offensive. But I blame myself for not foreseeing this reaction, since this is the unwelcome I was talking about. This joke's presence in the official documentation communicates (accurately, as this whole exchange has demonstrated) that Emacs is created by people who think that a reference to drag is politically incorrect (and somehow rightfully so) and risqué (else why bring up Victorian prudishness). And that suggests a certain kind of attitude that not everyone has the patience to deal with. I can see that the line is doing what it intends, so I accept the wontfix. With the bond that unites all living things, > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1998 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-09-02 3:49 ` Chris Shea @ 2018-09-03 6:26 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-09-03 6:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: m43cap, mbork, 32578 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > demonstrated) that Emacs is created by people who think that a reference to > drag is politically incorrect (and somehow rightfully so) and risqué (else > why bring up Victorian prudishness). And that suggests a certain kind of > attitude that not everyone has the patience to deal with. I think you've extrapolated; I think that attributes to me some ideas that I do not agree with. I can't be sure, because can't tell clearly what ideas it does attribute to me. I can't even tell which sort of attitude you are attributing to us, only that it is one that you disapprove of. If you would like to explain to me what you attributed to me, I would like to understand. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-29 17:29 bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Chris Shea 2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2018-08-30 20:08 ` Filipp Gunbin 2018-08-30 20:54 ` Chris Shea 2018-08-31 1:23 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Filipp Gunbin @ 2018-08-30 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: 32578 On 29/08/2018 13:29 -0400, Chris Shea wrote: > Hello, > > This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events > documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. > > Thanks, If jokes in manuals bother you, then you better not open Gnus manual :-) Why be so strict and not let people put jokes into manuals? We all know what manuals are for, and still very few complain about such things. Filipp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 20:08 ` Filipp Gunbin @ 2018-08-30 20:54 ` Chris Shea 2018-08-30 22:57 ` Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Chris Shea @ 2018-08-30 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: fgunbin; +Cc: 32578 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1034 bytes --] On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:08 PM Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm> wrote: > On 29/08/2018 13:29 -0400, Chris Shea wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag > events > > documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. > > > > Thanks, > > If jokes in manuals bother you, then you better not open Gnus manual :-) > > Why be so strict and not let people put jokes into manuals? We all know > what manuals are for, and still very few complain about such things. > > Filipp > Jokes in manuals do not bother me. Not generally. Good gracious, this isn't even a good joke. What if this patch changed the joke to something better? "A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user presses a mouse button and then moves the mouse to a different character position before releasing the button. While that should never happen in practice, you may find it necessary to react to such events to remind the user that no true Emacs operator even owns a mouse." All the best, [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1452 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-30 20:54 ` Chris Shea @ 2018-08-30 22:57 ` Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2018-08-30 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: 32578 > Good gracious, this isn't even a good joke. What if this patch changed the > joke to something better? "A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user > presses a mouse button and then moves the mouse to a different character > position before releasing the button. While that should never happen in > practice, you may find it necessary to react to such events to remind the > user that no true Emacs operator even owns a mouse." Reminds me an illustration in an old book depicting a terminal with an attached mouse and titled "workstation of a mouse operator" where a mouse operator implied a profession :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-29 17:29 bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Chris Shea 2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski 2018-08-30 20:08 ` Filipp Gunbin @ 2018-08-31 1:23 ` Richard Stallman 2018-09-01 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2018-08-31 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Shea; +Cc: 32578 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We will keep that joke, because there is nothing wrong with it. The joke is not unwelcoming to anyone, and does not exclude anyone. In the GNU Project, we appreciate the occasional joke, and we do not aim for Victorian prudery. Happy hacking. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation 2018-08-31 1:23 ` Richard Stallman @ 2018-09-01 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2018-09-01 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: cmshea, 32578-done tags 32578 wontfix thanks > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400 > Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org > > We will keep that joke, because there is nothing wrong with it. The > joke is not unwelcoming to anyone, and does not exclude anyone. In > the GNU Project, we appreciate the occasional joke, and we do not aim > for Victorian prudery. > > Happy hacking. By popular demand, I'm closing this bug as "wontfix". Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-09-03 6:26 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-08-29 17:29 bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Chris Shea 2018-08-30 7:20 ` Marcin Borkowski 2018-08-30 7:49 ` Colin Baxter 2018-08-30 9:13 ` Phil Sainty 2018-08-30 13:51 ` Chris Shea 2018-08-31 6:08 ` Marcin Borkowski 2018-09-02 3:13 ` Richard Stallman 2018-09-02 3:49 ` Chris Shea 2018-09-03 6:26 ` Richard Stallman 2018-08-30 20:08 ` Filipp Gunbin 2018-08-30 20:54 ` Chris Shea 2018-08-30 22:57 ` Juri Linkov 2018-08-31 1:23 ` Richard Stallman 2018-09-01 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
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