From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Josh Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15478: cc-mode does not obey electric-indent-mode Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:17:23 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20131002200737.GA3895@acm.acm> <524CDA92.1030107@dancol.org> <20131003094543.GA3211@acm.acm> <83zjqn5cri.fsf@gnu.org> <20131007093859.GA3859@acm.acm> <83hact5aoe.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01536b6a6fec7c04e82d2fcc X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1381180763 13456 80.91.229.3 (7 Oct 2013 21:19:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 21:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 07 23:19:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VTID2-0000jJ-Dc for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:78996 Archived-At: --089e01536b6a6fec7c04e82d2fcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 09:39:00 +0000 > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier < > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, > > gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > Hi, Josh. > > > > On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 10:04:00PM -0700, Josh wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > From: Stefan Monnier > > > > > Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:10:01 -0400 > > > > > Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org > > > > > For people who don't like electric-indent-mode, CC-mode's > > > > > c-electric-flag sucks just as much. > > > > Who are they, except for you? Why don't we hear any complaints about > > > > that, except from you? > > > > > c-electric-flag is a variable defined in `cc-engine.el'. > > > Its value is t > > > > > Automatically becomes buffer-local when set. > > > > > Documentation: > > > Not documented as a variable. > > > > > Do you hear many complaints about other undocumented variables? > > > > Here, the variable need only be accessed through the function below. The > > emphasis on this variable is only in discussions like this one, not in > > user facilities. > > Right. And in any case, I meant complaints about the behavior, not > about the variables/functions that control it. > I know what you meant. The reason I pointed out the fact that that the variable that supposedly "solved" this is undocumented, that newbies will not recognize "electric" as pertinent, and all the rest of it is to show that disabling this behavior is far too arcane and burdensome for newbies. As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- they download a program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, decide whether they want to invest time into it." I believe that most such users who dislike this behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far less likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to something else. Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don't know. But I attribute the fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection bias, with some who dislike the behavior not complaining because they gave up and moved on to another editor while still others who dislike it do not complain because we managed to disable it ourselves. --089e01536b6a6fec7c04e82d2fcc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 09:39:00 +0000
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org= >, Stefan Monnier <monnie= r@iro.umontreal.ca>,
> =A0 gnu-emacs-bug@= moderators.isc.org
> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de&= gt;
>
> Hi, Josh.
>
> On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 10:04:00PM -0700, Josh wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > > > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> > > > Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:10:01 -0400
> > > > Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org
> > > > For people who don't like electric-indent-mode, CC-= mode's
> > > > c-electric-flag sucks just as much.
> > > Who are they, except for you? =A0Why don't we hear any c= omplaints about
> > > that, except from you?
>
> > =A0 =A0 c-electric-flag is a variable defined in `cc-engine.el= 9;.
> > =A0 =A0 Its value is t
>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Automatically becomes buffer-local when set.
>
> > =A0 =A0 Documentation:
> > =A0 =A0 Not documented as a variable.
>
> > Do you hear many complaints about other undocumented variables? >
> Here, the variable need only be accessed through the function below. = =A0The
> emphasis on this variable is only in discussions like this one, not in=
> user facilities.

Right. =A0And in any case, I meant complaints about the behavior, not=
about the variables/functions that control it.

I know what you mea= nt.=A0 The reason I pointed out the fact that that the variable that suppos= edly "solved" this is undocumented, that newbies will not recogni= ze "electric" as pertinent, and all the rest of it is to show tha= t disabling this behavior is far too arcane and burdensome for newbies.=A0 = As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- they downlo= ad a program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, decide whether they want= to invest time into it."=A0 I believe that most such users who dislik= e this behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far le= ss likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to something else.=A0= Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don't know.=A0 But I attrib= ute the fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection b= ias, with some who dislike the behavior not complaining because they gave u= p and moved on to another editor while still others who dislike it do not c= omplain because we managed to disable it ourselves.=A0


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