From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Josh Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15478: cc-mode does not obey electric-indent-mode Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:59:40 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20131002200737.GA3895@acm.acm> <524CDA92.1030107@dancol.org> <20131003094543.GA3211@acm.acm> <83zjqn5cri.fsf@gnu.org> <20131007093859.GA3859@acm.acm> <83hact5aoe.fsf@gnu.org> <83vc1845ps.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3face0594ee04e83cddde X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1381248654 5195 80.91.229.3 (8 Oct 2013 16:10:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 16:10:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 08 18:10:55 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VTZs6-0001yP-MI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:79037 Archived-At: --001a11c3face0594ee04e83cddde Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Josh > > Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:17:23 -0700 > > Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier < monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, > > gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org > > As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- they download a > > program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, decide whether they want to > > invest time into it." I believe that most such users who dislike this > > behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far less > > likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to something else. > > Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don't know. But I attribute the > > fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection bias, > > with some who dislike the behavior not complaining because they gave up and > > moved on to another editor while still others who dislike it do not > > complain because we managed to disable it ourselves. > This hypothesis is not useful, because it can "justify" any opinion, > without being burdened with any evidence whatsoever. The fact is that > users do complain about all sorts of Emacs behavior that is > inconvenient for them. So, as a matter of fact, enough users do > survive the 15-minute shock to continue using Emacs. If most of those > who do don't see the current electrical behavior as a nuisance worth > complaining about, that is good enough for me. The squeaky wheel metric is often useful but surely you would agree that it tends to underrepresent those problems that are unlikely to be complained about in practice for one reason or another. I offered two such reasons (and you'll note that I acknowledged the possibility that such users could be a small minority) in order to point out that the number of complaints alone may not reflect the full extent of the problem, but it's clear that you don't believe the difference matters in this case. --001a11c3face0594ee04e83cddde Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > From: Jos= h <josh@foxtail.org>
> = > Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:17:23 -0700
> > Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>, Stefan Monnier <monn= ier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
> >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org<= br> > > As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- t= hey download a
> > program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, d= ecide whether they want to
> > invest time into it."=A0 I bel= ieve that most such users who dislike this
> > behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far= less
> > likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to so= mething else.
> > Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don&#= 39;t know.=A0 But I attribute the
> > fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection= bias,
> > with some who dislike the behavior not complaining beca= use they gave up and
> > moved on to another editor while still ot= hers who dislike it do not
> > complain because we managed to disable it ourselves.
> This= hypothesis is not useful, because it can "justify" any opinion,<= br>> without being burdened with any evidence whatsoever.=A0 The fact is= that
> users do complain about all sorts of Emacs behavior that is
> in= convenient for them.=A0 So, as a matter of fact, enough users do
> su= rvive the 15-minute shock to continue using Emacs.=A0 If most of those
> who do don't see the current electrical behavior as a nuisance wor= th
> complaining about, that is good enough for me.

The squeaky whe= el metric is often useful but surely you would agree
that it tends to un= derrepresent those problems that are unlikely to
be complained about in = practice for one reason or another.=A0 I offered
two such reasons (and you'll note that I acknowledged the possibilitythat such users could be a small minority) in order to point out that
= the number of complaints alone may not reflect the full extent of the
problem, but it's clear that you don't believe the difference matte= rs
in this case.

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