From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:48:56 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83y52dk82n.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11346bd2fbd91404f03abcb9 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390034984 20281 80.91.229.3 (18 Jan 2014 08:49:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 08:49:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= , "Richard M. Stallman" , David Kastrup , Emacs-Devel devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 18 09:49:51 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RbC-0006XH-RO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:49:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41630 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RbC-0007KN-G0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:49:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40048) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Rb8-0007K7-QW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:49:48 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Rb7-00087s-Ih for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:49:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]:53194) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Raz-00084h-08; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:49:37 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ig0-f176.google.com with SMTP id j1so3705678iga.3 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:49:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=KpHG5LWTW3K+Oabu2JXaXDcIYjVHud9OUlh5X2JcnMM=; b=AopC3204nJeEA9j/oT76uXKZsHCLeqGZOPSrO9MmXBTOG4d+zAKBoxPPv5rZOxYB39 6l4kzwBZUDCRGHz1NkB+EM0BttMKWUyxySvhZ+Gbs2Ovigxcxp9DqHRCm0XE02599Rn/ LgPUkxrRhVc71i1eFS7Je1Gp9uUvgTZIwdZkW8F0deuQ0rw4MfHs5Jk4PSCRB0xCAAGC B+l51hhnUCoV/L83qi4zySAbbibpQKaLH8+4R3sPODHJeB7xuaKJWoEyH90A5WgNi7cS oCMUJbiGhz0mEIvy8cjDnygQYRNOz70kF33TX1iSbnRnVXqmtLnh/w8Ha2kPkkJRiInx J6Aw== X-Received: by 10.42.4.201 with SMTP id 9mr126632ict.57.1390034976232; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:49:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.42.229.1 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:48:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83y52dk82n.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168657 Archived-At: --001a11346bd2fbd91404f03abcb9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:13:50 +0100 > > From: Per Starb=C3=A4ck > > Cc: David Kastrup , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" < > emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > > > Richard wrote: > > > > > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple > > > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority. > > > The priority is effective editing for people willing to learn. > > > We won't sacrifice that goal for ease of learning. > > > > I find this remark about "simple editors" interesting, not just in > > terms of Emacs, but of the whole GNU system. I have always thought > > of GNU Emacs as *the* editor in GNU, that is the default editor. Do > > you think a GNU system ideally instead should have some other > > ("simple") editor as the default editor? > > That's not what Richard was saying, not at all. There could very well > be a "simple" editor that is part of the GNU project (perhaps there is > one already). No one said the GNU project must have only one editor. > > > But this is of course not really true: > > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple > > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority. There could be a setup of Emacs that is as easy as any editor to learn. It is the advanced features that will take time to learn. I guess that we are really discussing is if there is an advantage of such a setup. In the light of that there was a whole new editor (gedit) created I think there could have been a better route. Emacs could probably have provided everything that gedit gives. I also guess it would have been less work. And there would have been a larger community using and working on Emacs. This does not mean, I think, that the creating of gedit was a bad thing. There are of course things on the positive side too. Those that created gedit might speak better about that. I believe the way forward is being open minded about plus and minus. In the history and future. Everybody here has the capacity to be that. That is what lead us to use Emacs, isn't it? ;-) --001a11346bd2fbd91404f03abcb9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eli Zaretskii <> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:13:50 +0100
> From: Per Starb=C3=A4ck <per@starback.se>
> Cc: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>, "emacs-devel@gnu.org" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>
> Richard wrote:
>
> > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple
> > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority.
> > The priority is effective editing for people willing to learn. > > We won't sacrifice that goal for ease of learning.
>
> I find this remark about "simple editors" interesting, not j= ust in
> terms of Emacs, but of the whole GNU system. I have always thought
> of GNU Emacs as *the* editor in GNU, that is the default editor. Do > you think a GNU system ideally instead should have some other
> ("simple") editor as the default editor?

That's not what Richard was saying, not at all. =C2=A0There could= very well
be a "simple" editor that is part of the GNU project (perhaps the= re is
one already). =C2=A0No one said the GNU project must have only one editor.<= br>


But this is of course not really true:
=C2=A0<= /div>
> > Emacs is never goin= g to be as easy to learn as simple
<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">> > editors, because ease of learni= ng is not its priority.

There could be a setup of Emacs that is as easy as any editor to= learn. It is the advanced features that will take time to learn.

I = guess that we are really discussing is if there is an advantage of such a s= etup. In the light of that there was a whole new editor (gedit) created I t= hink there could have been a better route. Emacs could probably have provid= ed everything that gedit gives.

I also guess it would have been less work. And there would have been a = larger community using and working on Emacs.

This does not mean, I t= hink, that the creating of gedit was a bad thing. There are of course thing= s on the positive side too. Those that created gedit might speak better abo= ut that.

I believe the way forward is being open minded about plus and minus. In= the history and future. Everybody here has the capacity to be that. That i= s what lead us to use Emacs, isn't it? ;-)
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