From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 02:27:58 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83vbzkcx20.fsf@gnu.org> <83d2lrczi7.fsf@gnu.org> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf10aa87c9df304ec32a11a X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385602109 2625 80.91.229.3 (28 Nov 2013 01:28:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 01:28:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" , Drew Adams , Emacs-Devel devel To: "T.V. Raman" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 28 02:28:38 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VlqPF-0003Zg-S6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2013 02:28:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38563 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VlqPF-0007wf-Eo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:28:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43744) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VlqPA-0007vq-AH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:28:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VlqP8-0001Jy-CY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:28:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]:64363) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VlqP8-0001J7-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:28:30 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hq4so180998wib.9 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 17:28:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=RKgtjs8gYF3GXhXC7wnzurcGIpTwILUAskqGtDqeAxs=; b=t2sTNqM3KAEz3Tgqm05XFtQwA4bBgh1LTSnKIGMQrbl/HkU4Bv/pu11O2Z3Swaaf9n 0EUdSKnPMFsMD3neR8l+vFiXzNoabQnS74Gg8DrVv6agYprDZOlGda0Q3u57nUgEpK8i HlDkImgUs4JlZJqOlYRKRrGhS/Xjy85onoepi9yRwPzWjTh3t/Zv8oVgYEhqsJ+vfGzs 8QwAmyImw1YT8L44jt+YlB1oKxUm4kiTGajgUyn/f73V0qVxEGnwdG7/NC9btB+s1Vw0 vD8Aatpe9N9PpvQ/6b5mgs8n6RlbWFlYFbGPtZvhtkQv3/SuoOc/Hx4EVbvkHMhbOR+T V+ww== X-Received: by 10.194.110.138 with SMTP id ia10mr34847231wjb.3.1385602108659; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 17:28:28 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.216.227 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165822 Archived-At: --047d7bf10aa87c9df304ec32a11a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The capability to export from .org files to LibreOffice etc is a very good feature. However the trouble is you can not import LibreOffice (since .org files can't handle all of the structure). I think it is a huge job to be able to edit something with all the structures in a LibreOffice file (I am thinking of just Writer part). Perhaps a LibreOffice plugin is a bit easier to develop since Emacs does not have to hold the complicated XML data. I suppose it has to ask LibreOffice for it. Perhaps the plugin then must not then be able to edit all the data. (That depends of course on the plugin architecture.) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 1:50 AM, T.V. Raman wrote: > I have been a fan of XML for 15 years. But that said, you're not > going to convince me that I'll do better with something that is > a reflection of data structures from a word processor as opposed > to say an org file that focuses on the structure of my content. I > became a fan of XML because I hoped it would bring the richness > of s-expressions to the Web, but that dream collapsed a long time ago. > > -- > Best Regards, > --raman > > > On 11/27/13, Drew Adams wrote: > >> Internal data structures being XML is a small step -- but only a > >> very small step. Angle brackets do not in themselves semantics > >> make:-) > > > > Angle brackets are not an inherent part of XML, except its serialized > > form. Think XML data, not XML as marked-up text. No one represents > > XML internally using text. Not an angle bracket in sight. > > > > And internal data structure being XML or Lisp sexps (which I also > > suggested) would be a GIANT step. A definition of well formedness > > and being able to validate against schemas (e.g., XML schemas or DTDs) > > makes a huge difference. > > > >> For seeing what I mean, just take a look at the xml files in any > >> of the modern MS Office file formats. > > > > Not a reference, sorry - not representative. I've already commented > > on this. MS Office's use of XML is not up to par. But even it might > > improve with time... It has to interact with the rest of the world. > > At a minimum, it has to grok clean XML and sooner or later will need > > to be able to output clean XML for others (or they will filter to > > get that). > > > >> Most word-processors after a while lose the distinction between > >> layout style and content, and what results in the file format is > >> a messy bag of bits. > > > > Wrong. The tendency is in the other direction, at least if you > > include high-end tools that people use to create doc. Of course, > > if you just count the number of executables out there in the wild, > > then MS Word might beat all others combined (just a guess). Still, > > it is not the measure I use, and it certainly is not a goal that > > anyone starting today would aim for. > > > > In the context of Emacs, which would be to a large extent starting > > from scratch in this area, there is zero reason to emulate something > > like MS Word, in terms either of its internal data representations > > or its *.doc files. (That does not mean that Emacs could not import > > or export *.doc files. I mean only that it is far saner to build on > > something like XML.) > > > > --047d7bf10aa87c9df304ec32a11a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The capability to export from .org files to LibreOffice et= c is a very good feature. However the trouble is you can not import LibreOf= fice (since .org files can't handle all of the structure).

I thi= nk it is a huge job to be able to edit something with all the structures in= a LibreOffice file (I am thinking of just Writer part). Perhaps a LibreOff= ice plugin is a bit easier to develop since Emacs does not have to hold the= complicated XML data. I suppose it has to ask LibreOffice for it. Perhaps = the plugin then must not then be able to edit all the data. (That depends o= f course on the plugin architecture.)


On Thu, Nov 2= 8, 2013 at 1:50 AM, T.V. Raman <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> w= rote:
I have been a fan of XML for 15 years. But t= hat said, you're not
going to convince me =C2=A0that I'll do better with something that is a reflection of data structures from a word processor as opposed
to say an org file that focuses on the structure of my content. I
became a fan of XML because I hoped it would bring the richness
of s-expressions to the Web, but that dream collapsed a long time ago.

--
Best Regards,
--raman


On 11/27/13, Drew Adams <drew.a= dams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> Internal data struct= ures being XML is a small step -- but only a
>> very small step. Angle brackets do not in themselves semantics
>> make:-)
>
> Angle brackets are not an inherent part of XML, except its serialized<= br> > form. =C2=A0Think XML data, not XML as marked-up text. =C2=A0No one re= presents
> XML internally using text. =C2=A0Not an angle bracket in sight.
>
> And internal data structure being XML or Lisp sexps (which I also
> suggested) would be a GIANT step. =C2=A0A definition of well formednes= s
> and being able to validate against schemas (e.g., XML schemas or DTDs)=
> makes a huge difference.
>
>> For seeing what I mean, just take a look at the xml files in any >> of the modern MS Office file formats.
>
> Not a reference, sorry - not representative. =C2=A0I've already co= mmented
> on this. =C2=A0MS Office's use of XML is not up to par. =C2=A0But = even it might
> improve with time... =C2=A0It has to interact with the rest of the wor= ld.
> At a minimum, it has to grok clean XML and sooner or later will need > to be able to output clean XML for others (or they will filter to
> get that).
>
>> Most word-processors after a while lose the distinction between >> layout style and content, and what results in the file format is >> a messy bag of bits.
>
> Wrong. =C2=A0The tendency is in the other direction, at least if you > include high-end tools that people use to create doc. =C2=A0Of course,=
> if you just count the number of executables out there in the wild,
> then MS Word might beat all others combined (just a guess). =C2=A0Stil= l,
> it is not the measure I use, and it certainly is not a goal that
> anyone starting today would aim for.
>
> In the context of Emacs, which would be to a large extent starting
> from scratch in this area, there is zero reason to emulate something > like MS Word, in terms either of its internal data representations
> or its *.doc files. =C2=A0(That does not mean that Emacs could not imp= ort
> or export *.doc files. =C2=A0I mean only that it is far saner to build= on
> something like XML.)
>


--047d7bf10aa87c9df304ec32a11a--