From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 12:03:26 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83y52dk82n.fsf@gnu.org> <87zjmtwqtv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2ae32257c1e04f03c9ee2 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390043052 31371 80.91.229.3 (18 Jan 2014 11:04:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 11:04:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel devel To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 18 12:04:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W4ThJ-0006BZ-Cc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 12:04:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41943 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4ThI-00029F-Pc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 06:04:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4ThF-000298-1Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 06:04:14 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4ThD-0003R4-UR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 06:04:12 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x234.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]:60537) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4ThC-0003Q7-12; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 06:04:10 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id d13so1660681wiw.13 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:04:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=gE4RFoRLIHMVUK+69UHs8D4bHP3R5xvgY/2G54q8yzY=; b=tg99Bl2lMrCfCibcCeQPDW6Ufg/y2nIaYGlr+BJ5Uhu7vDIB5sy0fI+JvOu7W1jBiW smfiilkaD9nryGyPYy1UuECsp59YheijFtSJHUJ1pUOO40bHKOFkGa6nM3ZuNAEeIDH1 6+JAzTCU0zBLhLw/Pa8NSFtRIOCFH7KRtKnhxl5OHAPY6HoUfcEZBTaviM35F88B+HiO 7z6Gz96GKTr4yd3aLtieZsgE13jX8otHoqe563k02a8zxMAP5aDeaFXhF5+OGCNBWipI c53/UAZBihLDeTHThhs0yMmHGkOuRTbgOTFuLvf90cggjWXDGaHc37ETZQLzqLK4Y0Rb puIA== X-Received: by 10.180.12.146 with SMTP id y18mr2341658wib.37.1390043048801; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:04:08 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.216.227 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:03:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87zjmtwqtv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168666 Archived-At: --001a11c2ae32257c1e04f03c9ee2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:02 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > Lennart Borgman writes: > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > >> > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple > >> > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority. > > > > There could be a setup of Emacs that is as easy as any editor to > > learn. > > That's a red herring. What people are looking for are not editors that > are easy to learn, but editors that can be used without learning > anything at all. > Do you believe you will convince me with this, or? ;-) Facts are much better if we do not agree. If we agreed this might have been better, more fun, of course... ;-) > > > I guess that we are really discussing is if there is an advantage of > > such a setup. In the light of that there was a whole new editor > > (gedit) created I think there could have been a better route. Emacs > > could probably have provided everything that gedit gives. > > > > I also guess it would have been less work. And there would have been a > > larger community using and working on Emacs. > > The future of Emacs depends on people with an attention span and > perseverence sufficient for extending it. Those are the people who are > most likely to be annoyed at the inconsistency of concepts and > operations of things like the full CUA mode (the one which uses > heuristics to decide whether to use C-x and C-c in the Emacs or the CUA > sense). > > Are you really sure you want to look down upon those that do not agree? ;-) --001a11c2ae32257c1e04f03c9ee2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:02 AM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@g= nu.org> wrote:
>
>> > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as sim= ple
>> > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority.
>
> There could be a setup of Emacs that is as easy as any editor to
> learn.

That's a red herring. =C2=A0What people are looking for are not e= ditors that
are easy to learn, but editors that can be used without learning
anything at all.
<= /blockquote>

Do you believe you will convince me with this, or? ;-)=
Facts are much better if we do not agree. If we agreed this might have = been better, more fun, of course... ;-)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> I guess that we are really discussing is if there is an advantage of > such a setup. In the light of that there was a whole new editor
> (gedit) created I think there could have been a better route. Emacs > could probably have provided everything that gedit gives.
>
> I also guess it would have been less work. And there would have been a=
> larger community using and working on Emacs.

The future of Emacs depends on people with an attention span and
perseverence sufficient for extending it. =C2=A0Those are the people who ar= e
most likely to be annoyed at the inconsistency of concepts and
operations of things like the full CUA mode (the one which uses
heuristics to decide whether to use C-x and C-c in the Emacs or the CUA
sense).

Are you really sure you want to look down = upon those that do not agree? ;-)

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