From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Apologia for bzr Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 03:32:41 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <20140105205645.GA12781@thyrsus.com> <87r48m2is1.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <929DF82A-EF65-415B-84E1-46F23057CDB7@gmail.com> <7CF87C8A-55FA-4848-8322-B30381DA0CE3@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfcf00a58522e04ef44152d X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388975606 26778 80.91.229.3 (6 Jan 2014 02:33:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 02:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eric Raymond , Florian Weimer , Toby Cubitt , Richard Stallman , EMACS development team To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 06 03:33:32 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W000R-0004KO-U6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 03:33:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60295 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W000R-0007t9-Hw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:33:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47958) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W000M-0007t3-Pf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:33:27 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W000K-0000fN-Mk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:33:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]:39695) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W000I-0000ev-Sk; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:33:23 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q59so15157519wes.38 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 18:33:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=IumZ+KqWGAFxvlxqoZ8tXXQt8AknYdkoiyU6nlUUT3g=; b=AaVRbcYtfh7cUVkcwZYTYw2c+jkXdt4/OQhE6j7PpnDAfrcpZePC4KeblCsv4w8fWL nc7RSI3c0mEnkbJOyTIqqiTgQhrye7IdwS74lcMyH6a7cQ0Ikae7cI03Nh9xr6diF/RP Skm15EGrERaSIXMndHuxVHD3pNgSeibEyqIlccKZIR07+5sk/WJtD+IsSBT/y8mqS3+i rL7TdTOocVb18tSMzjYb+xkBV0Nm5Ql0FppSlAdEvvwe6Q1CW3vx8YNUG7oHNwjHKsk5 +p4P/A4gE8X9f0Cl4MOWRyJe40XwqK6qip58IBCvMwU56XcFS9FidZ3us9TohWVzMAC3 G1vQ== X-Received: by 10.195.13.113 with SMTP id ex17mr71204102wjd.0.1388975601765; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 18:33:21 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.216.227 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:32:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7CF87C8A-55FA-4848-8322-B30381DA0CE3@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c03::233 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167428 Archived-At: --047d7bfcf00a58522e04ef44152d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 12:01 AM, chad wrote: > > On 05 Jan 2014, at 14:25, Lennart Borgman > wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 11:13 PM, chad wrote: > >> >> Windows as tabs by default would almost certainly improve familiarity by >> default. >> The keybindings are confusing to many people. People who accidentally >> split-window are very confused. >> >> Tabs is a very good feature, but it can't replace "split windows". The > latter must be taught to beginners. > > > As stated, I disagree (and this is coming from a person who lived inside > emacs-as-window-system for most of a year). It might come from seeing > dozens (maybe hundreds) of smart people decide that =E2=80=9CQuit Emacs= =E2=80=9D was the > best way to accomplish what I would do with "C-x 1=E2=80=9D, and that was= before > tabs. > > I think that *help* and *completions* can teach beginners about split > windows just fine, and from there they can learn about > split-window-{below,right}, winner/windmove, pop-up-windows, frames, and > tabs as fits their preferences. > > All that=E2=80=99s IMHO, of course. > Eh, I do not think we disagree. ;-) I just misread you. I thought you said split windows should be replaced by tabs. Sorry. I think your suggestion is fine. --047d7bfcf00a58522e04ef44152d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Jan 6, 2014 at 12:01 AM, chad <yandros@gmail.com> wrote:

On 05 Jan 2014, at 14:25, Lennart Borgman <= lennart.borgman@gmail.com> = wrote:

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 11:13 PM, chad <yandros@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>

Windows as tabs by default would almost certainly improve familiarity= by default.=C2=A0
The keybindings are confusing to many people. People = who accidentally split-window are very confused.

T= abs is a very good feature, but it can't replace "split windows&qu= ot;. The latter must be taught to beginners.=C2=A0

As stated, I disagree (and this is = coming from a person who lived inside emacs-as-window-system for most of a = year). It might come from seeing dozens (maybe hundreds) of smart people de= cide that =E2=80=9CQuit Emacs=E2=80=9D was the best way to accomplish what = I would do with "C-x 1=E2=80=9D, and that was before tabs.

I think that *help* and *completions* can teach beginne= rs about split windows just fine, and from there they can learn about split= -window-{below,right}, winner/windmove, pop-up-windows, frames, and tabs as= fits their preferences.

All that=E2=80=99s IMHO, of course.

Eh, = I do not think we disagree. ;-)
I just misread you. I thought you said split windows should be replaced by = tabs. Sorry.

I think your suggestion is fine.
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