From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:35:17 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <52D9E005.6030509@dancol.org> <52D9EEDD.9060109@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0117655734feb204f03a8cf4 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390034165 12589 80.91.229.3 (18 Jan 2014 08:36:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 08:36:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= , "Richard M. Stallman" , David Kastrup , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 18 09:36:12 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RNz-0003GP-GE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:36:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41616 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RNz-0004JD-26 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:36:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37802) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RNw-0004J7-DL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:36:09 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RNs-0004hz-8M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:36:08 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ie0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22d]:34813) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4RNn-0004VW-DI; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:35:59 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id e14so6440290iej.18 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:35:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=rbtRGPcVy5Ig5hYeNvgxb+4JnY5Jou2mv3yUMZDyw7o=; b=YESysT/ykHc18flMDKNoKNncZMESutbBBVk/n82tQtelQjWTimMyRZVgoau7sThMUU JfiqokMsk/5w3ZN0bVFuHf4yjSdYBwNnIDuS0Uou+7A5SZaDPUqqY/sBVBSDM+GTybDv UvmRf9O5fXIqQvroy8+lNXrwHemjXheEdFOBOETTI2w3CQ1jZRDPTRQqB3zawlD++SZH IawWf9gdarkIyYC2wUNgV+ZmTO1xw1wqS42NNQGwMR7jUg+zFhW+E817pnO/IKi49Pwd GZg21WcA0KzAeK8gVLv+KmLwA5w/XhRsy9Dc1Q7mIYfGe/oSU3azoZ+GFqGrEqXaaNDQ UTuQ== X-Received: by 10.50.119.3 with SMTP id kq3mr2558442igb.12.1390034157893; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:35:57 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.42.229.1 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:35:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52D9EEDD.9060109@dancol.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168655 Archived-At: --089e0117655734feb204f03a8cf4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Daniel Colascione wrote: > On 01/17/2014 06:59 PM, Lennart Borgman wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Daniel Colascione > > wrote: >> What does C-s do in Emacs? What do most novice users expect C-s to >> do? In order to use Emacs as a base for gedit, Emacs would have had >> to have been warped beyond all recognition. Emacs is a great >> environment, but let's not pretend that it's what users migrating >> from proprietary desktop operating systems should face when trying >> to edit a simple cookie recipe for themselves should have to face. >> >> Wouldn't you still have recognized the elisp? ;-) >> >> I would have been much more comfortable with Emacs as the basis for >> gedit. Emacs was made to be customize-able, but somehow it still failed >> to form the basis for gedit. Is not that a bit unfortunate? (Maybe not, >> but what about the future of Emacs then?) >> > > Parts of Emacs are very rigid. Try making a mode that allows point to be > off-screen while scrolling like it can be in most other editors. > > Bear in mind also that when gedit was new, Emacs didn't have > transient-mark-mode or shift-marking on by default and it didn't support > bidirectional text. The Emacs configuration system is also completely > different. Would you have integrated customize with gconf? How? > I am not sure what you are trying to say there, Daniel, but all these points looks to me like things that could be (or are now) solved. (The bidirectional text which Eli worked on was probably the hardest, of course.) --089e0117655734feb204f03a8cf4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org> wrote:
On 01/17/2014 06:59 PM, Lennart Borgman wrote:
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Daniel Colascione < <mailto:dancol@dancol.org>> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 What does C-s do in Emacs? What do most novice users expect C= -s to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 do? In order to use Emacs as a base for gedit, Emacs would ha= ve had
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to have been warped beyond all recognition. Emacs is a great<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 environment, but let's not pretend that it's what use= rs migrating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from proprietary desktop operating systems should face when t= rying
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to edit a simple cookie recipe for themselves should have to = face.

Wouldn't you still have recognized the elisp? ;-)

I would have been much more comfortable with Emacs as the basis for
gedit. Emacs was made to be customize-able, but somehow it still failed
to form the basis for gedit. Is not that a bit unfortunate? (Maybe not,
but what about the future of Emacs then?)

Parts of Emacs are very rigid. Try making a mode that allows point to be of= f-screen while scrolling like it can be in most other editors.

Bear in mind also that when gedit was new, Emacs didn't have transient-= mark-mode or shift-marking on by default and it didn't support bidirect= ional text. The Emacs configuration system is also completely different. Wo= uld you have integrated customize with gconf? How?

I am not sure what you are trying to say there, Dani= el, but all these points looks to me like things that could be (or are now)= solved. (The bidirectional text which Eli worked on was probably the harde= st, of course.)
--089e0117655734feb204f03a8cf4--