From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:38:31 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009bc65905b0518a47" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19321"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 27 22:40:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdSu-0004v3-VM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 22:40:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51378 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdSt-000583-SG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:40:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45942) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdRv-0004gy-G3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:39:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]:39962) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdRt-0006Hf-En for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:39:11 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id t76so9302002oif.7 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 13:39:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xBOIhY+gtg+A5fYAzkbeJQ8RlFt6103KdECt+Ve//3Y=; b=lH4PpU+ZZyq8SoFGnJmqiCTS/w1oX4rWo44p9PFiWETRE33Z+HwO2Owc2B3ZpAApYn jWBWFBXiYzVC9GVtDqKC9JdfIfmkienQRWmKbFvQbVu7ceekokVpgIPIoSkcMWPqIcgx LLRj9fvGx0ZolF3ogrtxH6Z881fYzA9WyX2GIO2yOR+D0GidgsNIXpTKgeaJp8ks/qt6 49p2J3Z5cTRYn/ZttZJUbXYW/Pi/1HdaxHBFq88GiRFu9QSU3evpoRTxYVqSYWlxmSNI HelpcMLPbs/NzX3/Qx8RD8p4Il0mBdW6LURM2ilyC7/y4tIwGkC75O0i3Ax1t4qq044i 2kvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xBOIhY+gtg+A5fYAzkbeJQ8RlFt6103KdECt+Ve//3Y=; b=FjbDSie+PBuaHHUXZzFNTaPg0bMik+7lqvyKeOOTzTE80agHBlJzB02hBHYAQ0Z/W4 rfDoD1DwZfHftvfCZGRimRUA1mGZc33KEF9CBa0hQbF3rVIh5azC3efX17EhqjzGWOna lX3t9aAO04pglP+DT2M8GPEXnaJwvs6lCKyR72uEzkEv2JGyz+nlwQ1FjRpNKIKjf4/D bpSpV9Bamx5Yx9Lw1BhyWpJvWa4bbqhq/MDxYINaduzE4AVV8mejsVgg1m1UgqFjcdFp 9+IrHlmBeaM7RFwSW+dHuLCU1HHeLTDT4Khy6zg74/Lp8jFwPa6azCAHOzm8WbxaViNQ fU6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CY1jowI6tT/Yo3AYgvgotXkRUVXhX1BqNqwj7DSMkMSbvBrx2 VzIGNMWODBmI2GDNyMij6U+LjnYsJddqdtz5lh2Lk4q8Y/8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnH9g4ipUQ0roJB6T88CR5sJw7LO5ofS/CiCcF+az72kAM2zRO/6qQuNDgfxi/pm7Ig4IF+CJ+wLhMCuJy1S4= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4142:: with SMTP id o63mr3989771oia.167.1601239147856; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 13:39:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d; envelope-from=jamtlu@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x22d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256553 Archived-At: --0000000000009bc65905b0518a47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Can your response be summarized like this? "Let's keep doing the same thing we're doing now and get the same result we've been getting for decades." > Today, there is a wealth of on-line > information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code > samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks > politely. Sure, but when I search "emacs org-mode deadline agenda" on Google, I get an helpful page from org-mode manual as the first result. I want to sort by deadline, not see what's due today. "I want to do X" guides don't appear. "emacs org-mode sort by deadline agenda" gets me this that just tells me to follow another link and read several more paragraphs: https://orgmode.org/manual/Sorting-of-agenda-items.html Compare that to most task managers that simply show you where on the GUI to do it. I want a guide and a lecture, not a lecture and a puzzle. Even if it's a little puzzle, I shouldn't have to think about it to do a task other people have done before. Say what you will about it "taking time to learn." I think the documentation is poorly organized. On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell wrote: > > In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs > beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say > right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience > is a worthy goal. > > It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users > learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know > that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first > from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing > and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial > and error. > > Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did > I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it > cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could, > and was already, doing for me. > > Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of > learning? No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the > thing. > > We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a > very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such > tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser > tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in > lesser amounts.) > > While we can and should do all we can to make the road > smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely > different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other > "help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's > face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy." > > Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not > sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the > past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a > certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or > liver and onions. > > Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started > with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line > information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code > samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks > politely. > > But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a > "Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist > after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For > Beginners"? > > Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything > else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant > gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice. > > -- > Bob Newell > Honolulu, Hawai`i > > - Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB > > --0000000000009bc65905b0518a47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can your= response be summarized like this?
<= br>
"Let's keep doing the sa= me thing we're doing now
and get = the same result we've been getting for decades."


> Today, there is a wealth of on-line<= /span>
> information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
> s= amples, and help readily available to anyone who asks
> politely.

Sure, but when I search "emacs org-mode = deadline agenda"
on Google, I get an helpful page from org-mode manual
as the first result. I= want to sort by deadline, not see what's
due today. "I want to do X" guides= don't appear.

"emacs org-mode sort by deadline agenda"= gets
me this that just tells me to f= ollow another link and read
several m= ore paragraphs:
https://orgmode.org/manual/S= orting-of-agenda-items.html

<= /div>
Compare that to most task managers th= at simply show you
where on the GUI t= o do it. I want a guide and a lecture, not
a lecture and a puzzle. Even if it's a little puzzle, I shouldn&#= 39;t
have to think about it to do a t= ask other people have done
before.

Say what you will about it "taking time to learn." I think
the documentation is poorly organized.<= /div>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> wrote:

In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs
beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say
right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience
is a worthy goal.

It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users
learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know
that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first
from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing
and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial
and error.

Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did
I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could,
and was already, doing for me.

Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of
learning?=C2=A0 No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the
thing.

We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a
very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such
tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser
tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in
lesser amounts.)

While we can and should do all we can to make the road
smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely
different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other
"help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy."

Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not
sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the
past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a
certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or
liver and onions.

Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started
with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line
information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks
politely.

But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a
"Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist
after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For
Beginners"?

Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything
else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant
gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice.

--
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

- Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB

--0000000000009bc65905b0518a47--