From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ship Mints Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: emacs-30 baaf97ce1a1: ; Fix some ungrammatical uses of "allows to" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:15:38 -0400 Message-ID: References: <86h6b1ewop.fsf@gnu.org> <87ed65al96.fsf@zephyr.silentflame.com> <86cylpes4c.fsf@gnu.org> <875xrhafqg.fsf@zephyr.silentflame.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072841e0620ed186a" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30851"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Sean Whitton Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 30 23:16:32 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sk8yt-0007sb-H1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 23:16:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sk8yN-00055X-DH; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:15:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sk8yL-00055I-5m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:15:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sk8yF-00011r-Lc; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:15:56 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4fcf60f4653so663188e0c.0; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1725052550; x=1725657350; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uRPVi4nQ+gPUqbwZasSQpaZDAa3cjHURBAzn3ph77m4=; b=kr24fD8SEB4X6ZZSQhPaksZ19dTgURL5WbSiSRqoAGlnJcEjOgi88ctmITtcv3FCGL Wv9lMGA6ANJCtS0Hw7BRKgivWiFZ1HKOoaR3FFtYCLwQIgHwiPKz4YP77d6NxF5GWhzZ ggc0rA8BPG6y9fa+yKxNgl7j6W80Le8eVXqKvx0/WBM69aV6UQ7+Iepk835hHPNDo4uB bnFRarqR3AfOe0fx2NlNt6XJtTCR2tNTs2a2yHuMgtg75mEz9/fRrld0Zr2Rvk5DcQba InNUgGMFdlmIFkDzGjlWPeoFiBYjo8o2MeanHl0nC/Av6QAFtpuJL4IKS7+JM4vcjxla fRhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725052550; x=1725657350; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=uRPVi4nQ+gPUqbwZasSQpaZDAa3cjHURBAzn3ph77m4=; b=G8xjIMGdqZjxkNQb9kKNjTQziV/9v7BkafKl4tSpZTHS2zJjyEUwPPDYvDteJiUhFD cxXHTE8iLoafelXq4TXNz65w3C9L1D5JcOYcfM9Ij5WF3o32KLRJN2QtY0VxHh1lKI+q m5VSCf2LnhUAfMKfjAAaEWftHzR5q52tJA1L8JFr8VtJWz25+dkq+e0XobSP/1dtQo5m iz4tl5xh1VI6QTMPGnzHWEy0/4wxNJ9aFyf6Pu0MaK3Yc5Ylw26YQPkSguNgwHZhwTJv lteO+696KDUqFNX2W+DMWHLdTkLLga6CY2Ej6a/ECL+3uC4U3W4UZNbOPK1SvV7UoNAQ TlRg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVbjE13Y4ksJNBOKW1vLjsZ7CtauDR9sagkd7rm9dkMzR75scIT0IYgHFJPgvdTj2JXwu9jj/vgu19CmA==@gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzI9CeKOgsCzRIDCQcLRIhNT98UPCrhHoi7gtTtYeEgHHFRi4H9 ssOCfO3//ScwIpJYTeX2od8Kr4ycDZKA81q64JWgutaWBcmKtH90wzwOhbaxgpeWuH1u3ogZymS tt8gfGqMHnVYBbTUNszge4o6cryEFPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHSuAMuPS0fws/IlldnaS/d7mvwXbnEEdmQT6WF4o/amBDbQGFYmUqmdHVDd+6HmwdXiTOBr6FjLy+VNpcrH+Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:311a:b0:4f6:e87d:5160 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4fff1697344mr7900465e0c.9.1725052549757; Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:15:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <875xrhafqg.fsf@zephyr.silentflame.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d; envelope-from=shipmints@gmail.com; helo=mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323222 Archived-At: --00000000000072841e0620ed186a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find Eli's English is better than native proficiency, especially considering the bell curve is alive and well. I currently live in the USA where English proficiency seems to be on a long, slow, steady downward trend. I assumed he is a native, or near native, speaker/writer. He writes well, and all day long on this list, about very complex topics (at least compared to the general public), and is patient and very clear. He even uses correct punctuation where I observe many Americans don't, or don't bother; if they are studious enough to know it. On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 5:01=E2=80=AFPM Sean Whitton wrote: > Hello, > > On Fri 30 Aug 2024 at 10:18pm +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > I disagree, but that is not the important aspect of this. The > > important aspect is that changing grammar should not make the text > > harder to read and understand. By mechanically changing those places > > to be grammatically you definitely made at least some of the text more > > awkward and hard to read. E.g., look at this one: > > Let me just note that I didn't do it mechanically. I always read the > surrounding context if I change something like this, else I can't know > for sure that I did it correctly. > > > -The command @code{recover-file} no longer allows to display the diff= s > > +The command @code{recover-file} no longer allows displaying the diff= s > > > > Does this really read well to you? Or how about this one: > > > > -dnl The first variable allows to distinguish all three cases. > > +dnl The first variable allows distinguishing all three cases. > > > > "Allows distinguishing"? really? > > Yes -- I don't find these the slightest bit unclear, unnatural or > difficult to read. "allows distinguishing" doesn't stand out to me. > > > You should have instead reworded the text to avoid the use of these > > constructs, making the text more clear and side-stepping the issue of > > "allow to" entirely. > > Well, in this, as you are a non-native speaker, your opinion on whether > it's clear counts for more than mine. So I would be happy to put in the > effort to try to make it clearer. However, I don't think I'm capable of > doing a good job, because they all read perfectly fine for me. > > My only suggestion would be "allows you to make Emacs distinguish" ? > > -- > Sean Whitton > > --00000000000072841e0620ed186a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I find Eli's English is better than native proficiency, especially c= onsidering the bell curve is alive and well. I currently live in the USA wh= ere English proficiency seems to be on a long, slow, steady downward trend.= I assumed he is a native, or near native, speaker/writer. He writes well, = and all day long on this list, about very complex topics (at least compared= to the general public), and is patient and very clear. He even uses correc= t punctuation where I observe many Americans=C2=A0don't, or don't b= other; if they are studious enough to know it.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at= 5:01=E2=80=AFPM Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> wrote:
Hello,

On Fri 30 Aug 2024 at 10:18pm +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> I disagree, but that is not the important aspect of this.=C2=A0 The > important aspect is that changing grammar should not make the text
> harder to read and understand.=C2=A0 By mechanically changing those pl= aces
> to be grammatically you definitely made at least some of the text more=
> awkward and hard to read.=C2=A0 E.g., look at this one:

Let me just note that I didn't do it mechanically.=C2=A0 I always read = the
surrounding context if I change something like this, else I can't know<= br> for sure that I did it correctly.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-The command @code{recover-file} no longer allows to displ= ay the diffs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+The command @code{recover-file} no longer allows displayi= ng the diffs
>
> Does this really read well to you?=C2=A0 Or how about this one:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-dnl The first variable allows to distinguish all three ca= ses.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+dnl The first variable allows distinguishing all three ca= ses.
>
> "Allows distinguishing"? really?

Yes -- I don't find these the slightest bit unclear, unnatural or
difficult to read.=C2=A0 "allows distinguishing" doesn't stan= d out to me.

> You should have instead reworded the text to avoid the use of these > constructs, making the text more clear and side-stepping the issue of<= br> > "allow to" entirely.

Well, in this, as you are a non-native speaker, your opinion on whether
it's clear counts for more than mine.=C2=A0 So I would be happy to put = in the
effort to try to make it clearer.=C2=A0 However, I don't think I'm = capable of
doing a good job, because they all read perfectly fine for me.

My only suggestion would be "allows you to make Emacs distinguish"= ; ?

--
Sean Whitton

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