From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Hackney Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:29:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51869dc69de8e04cdda4de1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352237401 2015 80.91.229.3 (6 Nov 2012 21:30:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:30:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs development discussions , Dani Moncayo To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 06 22:30:10 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TVqil-0008Uc-Nu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 22:30:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39885 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVqic-0006Kz-Qb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:29:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54565) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVqiZ-0006Kh-Eu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:29:56 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVqiX-0003w6-EB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:29:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com ([209.85.223.169]:37548) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVqiX-0003vg-6D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:29:53 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 10so1692724ied.0 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=haxney.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ikK368/HKe+0UM84/o6U2hOh9S346I7vWcDY3ZI2xlM=; b=Loly+3AqNbWmpiaE3FqJGG3phAKDHgiyhdT0uXw0u2mGJ7Phv2MBj7LgSwLHwztcB7 iLs6U9vhCqByval+KpULXKBPzwcqiTFBgS7ARIw8YftLk3fuV/D45pKUVawmQm+Sezj3 XMwO8uEOxI5Wzwl6LPqlkOUnHIdRwT5YSWMkY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=ikK368/HKe+0UM84/o6U2hOh9S346I7vWcDY3ZI2xlM=; b=F28L9KhFMlauUQl5Cu5NxsIpQ/vErZEaKGXyopLJu9e3JU1AfsMrRZq/mdd127R6YH kVTOZdQohsRykK3guFpip0TCiLR8rw5AoWyDse5Q71rOx/7AQMlb8cnYStlAWzu2iP1B vqWpQ33kEVII4r+Pv3NyiqNETXieSFIPQzRX+sjlvqqvPenTr3E6BEuDjsq4degzJAE1 SVQ2BwyWfbV/fkznO5Jyx7cPIESPLstw0teVh6be3B7Rjyh5+/vuJLnIkuBdfhHDwiBA CiUc+GeUn2/iV/dXuAEhY8OvIHv1c1NJuc8MHhJzD4hgtuENgJlPPrvd91joVAlGlKF/ SBCQ== Original-Received: by 10.43.98.68 with SMTP id cn4mr2293898icc.14.1352237392190; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.64.0.110 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.64.0.110 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkGQT0MKNpL3E/qRgnaV2MPWPUGqzV1f73wFfq3AXCHM7kXdK6a7QBJYViMvyTpu2Q7ymXX X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 209.85.223.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154709 Archived-At: --bcaec51869dc69de8e04cdda4de1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 "Stefan Monnier" wrote: > > > "up"/"down" alone are ambiguous, of course. But I wasn't proposing > > them alone. I was including also the part that is moving ("view" or > > whatever name describes the view port). > > The real source of the problem is that most users are not aware that > there's an ambiguity, and so adding "viewport" (which they might even > not know) or "window" or "buffer content" won't help them much. Given the universal use of down/up in every other program, I don't see how it's ambiguous. Emacs even has "Top" or "Bot" in the mode line when you are at the beginning or end of the buffer. Moving towards the top is "up", moving towards the bottom is "down". In the context of elisp code, I think it might make some sense to talk about next/previous lines for the purpose of disambiguation in the face of overlays, longlines and visual-line-mode, but for anything user-facing, "up" and "down" are the standards. I might be too young (25), but I've never come across or considered the possibility that the directions might be reversed. If you press the down arrow on they keyboard, point moves downward and if it reaches the bottom of the window, the buffer is scrolled down. --bcaec51869dc69de8e04cdda4de1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Stefan Monnier" <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> > "up"/"down" alone are ambiguous, of course. = =C2=A0But I wasn't proposing
> > them alone. =C2=A0I was including also the part that is moving (&= quot;view" or
> > whatever name describes the view port).
>
> The real source of the problem is that most users are not aware that > there's an ambiguity, and so adding "viewport" (which th= ey might even
> not know) or "window" or "buffer content" won'= t help them much.

Given the universal use of down/up in every other program, I= don't see how it's ambiguous. Emacs even has "Top" or &q= uot;Bot" in the mode line when you are at the beginning or end of the = buffer. Moving towards the top is "up", moving towards the bottom= is "down".

In the context of elisp code, I think it might make some sen= se to talk about next/previous lines for the purpose of disambiguation in t= he face of overlays, longlines and visual-line-mode, but for anything user-= facing, "up" and "down" are the standards. I might be t= oo young (25), but I've never come across or considered the possibility= that the directions might be reversed. If you press the down arrow on they= keyboard, point moves downward and if it reaches the bottom of the window,= the buffer is scrolled down.

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