From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Hackney Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:05:09 -0500 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352138740 2886 80.91.229.3 (5 Nov 2012 18:05:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:05:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs development discussions To: Dani Moncayo Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 05 19:05:49 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TVR3U-0005Gw-VS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:05:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37842 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVR3L-0006xv-S8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:05:39 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35235) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVR3F-0006ws-JS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:05:38 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVR3D-0001IK-AP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:05:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com ([209.85.223.169]:33436) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVR3D-0001IA-2G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:05:31 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 10so10299008ied.0 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 10:05:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=haxney.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=T+Femtouo+sAe0Z/YwH1SpDY32FDVkd7dkmUHRS0USw=; b=H6AdG2y24Y/ChqTWkn5dMUkS1KKPyXWOdaCVvvEMyhw99EjbdrtZkR/tdHBL4H3oNg bwU/lE9nyHC0Q0vkjHJlUEdeySh0CMSrmkhEdDpuxwEt/bHY0pBEmNQ9QNLT4X/QBcKQ uXHf6VI8Hf/LtbHttZzhw5k8a5VeqlKYWRuJc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=T+Femtouo+sAe0Z/YwH1SpDY32FDVkd7dkmUHRS0USw=; b=EZhloU3PWJjjjAPnXnJtidKzCkfQeIajkjbG+byFR7vcKKHNo3VbmD4SOd+IZPh3Tu e2UnMq8xocWuP+roXdinRly4wdrGdrwLt2c6xAvT7oXHnEQc3HgRNW1BME9W+iGmq4GY q2XJvBG7fmayuc/kBcsS0SnRbqlmLN1KSp6ORDCcpjcp1fKvt+MULFwdONdxDtNt9w7R Tl2X44CKuHKmtytfHQU6u/RtXs/JMnbj4s19F+mqT/h3GpBdATAFia9tv9obNU8pwvm4 dltYK4pw7lyAxItVj806ZqvDYkFjNJZEi/tREuPAk0LRRvT/8fi6WeGHksHWtdr1mGeL kv5w== Original-Received: by 10.50.188.225 with SMTP id gd1mr10438325igc.15.1352138729725; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 10:05:29 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.64.0.110 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 10:05:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlzBEV1ikldfQehvasZ6gale6JEYhGss8PmCOMYc1mP8vbDMsQOaq8Ag3S7PD+9o7rSP0rB X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 209.85.223.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154690 Archived-At: Dani Moncayo wrote: > Hello, > > After reading (info "(emacs) Scrolling"), I think the Emacs > terminology for specifying scrolling directions is pretty confusing: > > 1. The terms "up" and "down" have the opposite meanings of the ones > commonly used in the (non-emacs) world. The info node explains that > this is for historical reasons; OK, but then, why don't we try to find > a solution? (see below) Wow. I've been using Emacs hardcore for 6 years and never noticed this! I can understand the window/frame naming, but I never imagined that Emacs would do things backwards for scrolling. The idea that "down" would mean "up" is baffling. I suppose a transition would be difficult, but I can't imagine why it should stick with the opposite definition from everything else. Emacs uses "down" to mean "move downwards" in its documentation already: - =next-line= :: Move cursor vertically down ARG lines. - =outline-move-subtree-up= :: Move the current subtree up past ARG headlines of the same level. - bindings.el :: (define-key global-map [up] 'previous-line) - =end-of-defun= :: Move forward to next end of defun. - =eobp= :: Return t if point is at the end of the buffer. - =erc-scroll-to-bottom= :: Recenter WINDOW so that `point' is on the last line. Plus, it's what every other program uses: * Firefox - scroll on mobile :: http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-do-i-turn-do-not-track-feature-mobile - page down :: http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/settings-network-updates-and-encryption * LibreOffice - Writer navigation :: http://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Navigation * Gnome terminal - Scroll through commands :: http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-terminal/stable/gnome-terminal-usage.html.en * Microsoft Office - Through a worksheet :: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/scroll-through-a-worksheet-HP005201425.aspx * Gnumeric - Scrollbars :: http://projects.gnome.org/gnumeric/doc/sect-graphics-widgets-scrollbar.shtml * Gtk - =GtkScrolledWindow= :: http://www.gtk.org/api/2.6/gtk/GtkScrolledWindow.html - left moves towards the top :: http://www.gtk.org/api/2.6/gtk/GtkTextView.html#gtk-text-view-scroll-to-mark Et Cetera. All of the documentation refers to "movement towards =(point-max)=" as going towards the end or bottom of the buffer/window. It wouldn't make sense to say "scroll up to the end of the window" or "scroll all the way down until you reach the beginning." -- Daniel Hackney