Difficulty of using Org mode

Difficulty of using Org mode

[Michael Hannon]

Hi, folks.  Just FYI:


----- Forwarded Message -----
>From: Yihui Xie <xie@yihui.name>
>To: Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk> 
>Cc: ESS-help@r-project.org 
>Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [ESS] knitr
> 
>There is no point comparing markdown with org mode, and the answer
>will be definitely this: org mode can beat markdown almost everywhere;
>they are not even comparable. The point is that markdown was not
>designed to provide new features; it was designed to be simple so it
>intentionally discarded lots of features and people can learn it
>quickly. I have tried a few times to learn org mode, and it is just
>too complicated for me.
>
>Regards,
>Yihui
>--
>Yihui Xie <xieyihui@gmail.com>
>Phone: 515-294-2465 Web: http://yihui.name
>Department of Statistics, Iowa State University
>2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA
>
>
>On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> That's interesting that LaTeX was a barrier for R users.
>>
>> I've not used Markdown before; it seems neat, but what does it offer
>> that org mode doesn't?  I see there is a markdown-mode.el
>>
>> http://jblevins.org/projects/markdown-mode/
>>
>> that has some support for org mode style cycling of outlines.
>>
>> Anyone prefer markdown to org mode, and if so why?
>>
>> (If anyone is interested, on the org mode list recently there was
>> discussion about exporting org docs to markdown.)
>>
>> Stephen
>
>______________________________________________
>ESS-help@r-project.org mailing list
>https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/ess-help
>
>
>

Re: Difficulty of using Org mode

[Bastien]

Hi Michael,

Michael Hannon <jm_hannon@yahoo.com> writes:

> Hi, folks.  Just FYI:
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>>From: Yihui Xie <xie@yihui.name>
>>To: Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk> 
>>Cc: ESS-help@r-project.org 
>>Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:08 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ESS] knitr
>> 
>>There is no point comparing markdown with org mode, and the answer
>>will be definitely this: org mode can beat markdown almost everywhere;
>>they are not even comparable. The point is that markdown was not
>>designed to provide new features; it was designed to be simple so it
>>intentionally discarded lots of features and people can learn it
>>quickly. I have tried a few times to learn org mode, and it is just
>>too complicated for me.

Well, it all boils down to disambiguate what "learning Org" means.

It is hard to say just from the message above.  If you can, please
redirect the OP to this list so that he feels guided in tasks he wants
to do with Org.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Difficulty of using Org mode

[Michael Hannon]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

>Michael Hannon <jm_hannon@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Hi, folks.  Just FYI:
>>
>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>>>From: Yihui Xie <xie@yihui.name>
>>>To: Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk>
>>>Cc: ESS-help@r-project.org
>>>Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:08 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [ESS] knitr
>>>
>>>There is no point comparing markdown with org mode, and the answer
>>>will be definitely this: org mode can beat markdown almost everywhere;
>>>they are not even comparable. The point is that markdown was not
>>>designed to provide new features; it was designed to be simple so it
>>>intentionally discarded lots of features and people can learn it
>>>quickly. I have tried a few times to learn org mode, and it is just
>>>too complicated for me.
>
> Well, it all boils down to disambiguate what "learning Org" means.
>

> It is hard to say just from the message above.  If you can, please redirect
> the OP to this list so that he feels guided in tasks he wants to do with
> Org.

Hi, Bastien.  I don't know this guy, but I don't think he's *trying* to learn
Org mode at this point.  He seems to be a very capable guy:

    http://yihui.name/

and is evidently the author of the R package "knitr" for literate programming.

I was just struck by the fact that a person of his evident ability would give
up on Org mode.  I can't say it has been all that easy for me to use Org mode,
and I'm sure there are Avogadro's number of things I still don't know about
it, but I've never viewed it is being *that* difficult.  Probably I've been
spoiled by all the help I've gotten from this enormously useful list.

There's no real action item for anybody here.  I speculate that this guy might
just have had more fun writing his own package than in learning somebody
else's.  But I don't see how it could hurt for the Org-mode community to keep
an eye out for usability issues.

-- Mike

Re: Difficulty of using Org mode

[Stephen Eglen]

As Yihui was following up to an email of mine about Org mode on the ESS
(emacs speaks statistics list), I will email him to find out if I can
see what issues he had.  For the record: I also found learning Org mode
quite challenging, and I consider myself a diehard Emacs person.  I
guess if you were to ask me what I found difficult, was that it was
quite overwhelming knowing where to start.  (So I started small by
learning the agenda features...)

Stephen


Michael Hannon <jm_hannon@yahoo.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>>Michael Hannon <jm_hannon@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> Hi, folks.  Just FYI:
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>>>>From: Yihui Xie <xie@yihui.name>
>>>>To: Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk>
>>>>Cc: ESS-help@r-project.org
>>>>Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:08 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [ESS] knitr
>>>>
>>>>There is no point comparing markdown with org mode, and the answer
>>>>will be definitely this: org mode can beat markdown almost everywhere;
>>>>they are not even comparable. The point is that markdown was not
>>>>designed to provide new features; it was designed to be simple so it
>>>>intentionally discarded lots of features and people can learn it
>>>>quickly. I have tried a few times to learn org mode, and it is just
>>>>too complicated for me.
>>
>> Well, it all boils down to disambiguate what "learning Org" means.
>>
>
>> It is hard to say just from the message above.  If you can, please redirect
>> the OP to this list so that he feels guided in tasks he wants to do with
>> Org.
>
> Hi, Bastien.  I don't know this guy, but I don't think he's *trying* to learn
> Org mode at this point.  He seems to be a very capable guy:
>
>     http://yihui.name/
>
> and is evidently the author of the R package "knitr" for literate programming.
>
> I was just struck by the fact that a person of his evident ability would give
> up on Org mode.  I can't say it has been all that easy for me to use Org mode,
> and I'm sure there are Avogadro's number of things I still don't know about
> it, but I've never viewed it is being *that* difficult.  Probably I've been
> spoiled by all the help I've gotten from this enormously useful list.
>
> There's no real action item for anybody here.  I speculate that this guy might
> just have had more fun writing his own package than in learning somebody
> else's.  But I don't see how it could hurt for the Org-mode community to keep
> an eye out for usability issues.
>
> -- Mike

Re: Difficulty of using Org mode

[suvayu ali]

Hi,

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@damtp.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> I guess if you were to ask me what I found difficult, was that it was
> quite overwhelming knowing where to start.  (So I started small by
> learning the agenda features...)

IMO the reason many have this problem because they think "I need to know
everything Org-mode can do" or "I want to customise Org-mode" from the
very beginning.

The way I went about it was to get an overview of the capabilities from
Worg and start using only the features I needed (in my case note taking
and export). As I became more familiar, I delved into other features
(like agenda, babel) and customisation of the already familiar features
(e.g. custom export hooks, personalised colour theme etc).

Idea: Maybe this could be a nice entry on the FAQ, "Where do I start?".
Maybe even a dedicated page on the Worg Index page. Any volunteers?

:)

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: Difficulty of using Org mode

[Memnon Anon]

suvayu ali <fatkasuvayu+linux@gmail.com> writes:

> The way I went about it was to get an overview of the capabilities from
> Worg and start using only the features I needed (in my case note taking
> and export). As I became more familiar, I delved into other features
> (like agenda, babel) and customisation of the already familiar features
> (e.g. custom export hooks, personalised colour theme etc).

And this is exactly what orgmode.org tells you from the start:

,----[ http://www.orgmode.org ]
| Simplicity
|     At its core, Org mode is a simple outliner for note-taking and list
|     management. You can learn the basics for using it in five minutes.
|     This may be all you need, and Org mode will not impose more complex
|     features on you. 
`----

with a link to
     http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/orgtutorial_dto.html

There is also the compact guide, which is the first link on the
documentation page:
     http://orgmode.org/guide/index.html

I don't know how hard org is (or is not) for emacs users; I came to
emacs because of org and started from there :). My first post to this
list is from mid 2008 (... that long already?) and it is getting more
and more complex; I could pick up new features along the way.

If you are new to org and/or emacs: Take it easy :). I know it is
tempting to try everything at once, but don't get frustrated while doing
so. 

IMHO & FWIW
Memnon