From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New Package for NonGNU-ELPA: clojure-ts-mode Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 08:51:21 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmxj27fn.fsf@dfreeman.email> <831qfrptiq.fsf@gnu.org> <57429221-d9be-5791-e975-b3539905e2f6@gutov.dev> <83a5udlj47.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5udk1co.fsf@posteo.net> <835y51kslv.fsf@gnu.org> <7a82c524-1aa1-e755-e377-673ebb107a44@gutov.dev> <83r0nok8s4.fsf@gnu.org> <87il90znco.fsf@yahoo.com> <1977fbef-307b-bcf4-9448-64f26916dd65@gutov.dev> <87edjozlqq.fsf@yahoo.com> <43ddad10-49dd-1c49-ebfe-51689780b315@gutov.dev> <87msyciplu.fsf@posteo.net> <83h6okk3oe.fsf@gnu.org> <87edjoindn.fsf@posteo.net> <83bkesjwuk.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19032"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 31 14:52:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qbh9U-0004gV-E2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:52:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbh98-00049m-Vg; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 08:51:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbh97-00046O-Sb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 08:51:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qbh95-0003IZ-Gc; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 08:51:37 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27178b6417fso595081a91.0; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 05:51:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693486293; x=1694091093; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Qn7neLRHCUd0kMdd7begZgTv2QZ34RQeww+sdaaoDdM=; b=jYvVeoprRO2F64vmU95CFGBewybJyZX5/W5AaAyHT0ZUuRPLRkyF3zaw7Jea51sO+E uvGNtXLB6GXwiDL09y0kwZEo1YjyEP1hll+ORl65iQSsHu6MH3i/pzyVK+SGyE3M0hpJ KcEZ3z4MUvC93b3H1yJNmNbVt6TV8iZGliMXMG277ay+4x5jxF1sMJ/j9Kp+lg7q+Z8d koRtshKRpqQe+6gK6v7GuUMLfc4DHXEK7rEjkno+QN22T9IX2QwZBXdyRu91k9X6joX1 rDHe9AI87AUbyQyMp+vtV/vaYMLU04P/G+6+cjbmd2mXOZCShBgIMH1ph7IhdFFsxEti dbaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693486293; x=1694091093; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qn7neLRHCUd0kMdd7begZgTv2QZ34RQeww+sdaaoDdM=; b=QDWFoRt48dxJLfb1iFubtNgEofEpOKHo9lhIv5mgdfC09kxjDFcFvKc1xypAKUoXVD NDrRBjpzZpNJ+VBaQjOi5h3L7sIoWTKudoM7yw3RZV8s0cO0fh+VPpaEVVzVX4IWtG5F +iKCC+Vw3RRHEj+bCqgArYFmZjoI/X3NAraJbJTlnayv7HelSEk69z4nahdbzdDXnO0G RWK3V/oMeYesg2Tbccb7YvUamQCOfKBzv8Nz2ZLLhO6yHziAF8WCd+imx7G3wCdJAT2U 83eIEbqInAsy39jFMUoShqQoCZlanb41ygiKNZp+FEBnoWszGrB9mfmkEgu2ZNE8U/tw vRKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzd9LqboxvFa4dqlxBjXSX/+onpaw9cRN94+ZYDNdY+Iwmnzi4l gSm8bsYBVfc5UvF40roLpN47VIffyxEUiHuN4cCdZ/Vh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF/aPnTuV2A2fmr/L1ox3dyi2ZaB2KWitqzJDKxQrQwbN1YYtP4QThbi7Ry71Wrhc6AvmTJxQ7NiF/Szf+bz/0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bf88:b0:26b:c3f:1503 with SMTP id d8-20020a17090abf8800b0026b0c3f1503mr5268718pjs.17.1693486292944; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 05:51:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1032.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309644 Archived-At: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 10:08=E2=80=AFPM Richard Stallman wro= te: > > How much of your concern with obtaining copyright assignments is the > > developer's willingness to give their own signature, and how much is > > around the hassle of needing to involve their employer, even when > > their contributions are not at all part of their employment? > > First, I have to point out that they are both necessary. The human > authors cannot assign the copyright if an employer can legally claim > it. By signing the employer disclaimer, the employer waives the > possibility of claiming the copyright, clearing the way for the > authors to assign it. I don't dispute the prudence of the FSF's approach. I don't believe the enforceability of employment agreements for at-will employees claiming assignment of legal rights to the product of work outside of those produced "in the course of employment" has been established conclusively. Unfortunately, the prevalence of arbitration agreements makes it difficult to see the issue being litigated in a forum that establishes precedent any time soon. To me, such agreements should fall afoul of prohibitions against conditioning employment on "kickbacks" - which is simply the requirement that the employee give the employer (or any other person) any "thing of value" (e.g. property of the employee). > In practice, cases where the employer won't sign are a tiny fraction. > Some employers object to parts of the text, but we discuss it with them > and can usually reach agreement. I suspect there is a substantial selection bias in the first statement. That is, the authors who ask for a copyright assignment are primarily those who already have reason to believe their employers will be amenable to it. It's difficult to measure the number of developers who publish free software who *might* contribute directly but believe their employers will not agree, or simply do not want to involve their employers in their private hobbies, much less the number of people who are wholly deterred from even writing software that might be published under a free license because their employer might simply dislike their doing so, whether the employer has an enforceable right to .that copyright or simply intends to demand it regardless of the enforceability of the claim. In practice, the purpose of such expansive claims to work produced outside the course of employment is primarily to discourage any productive effort outside of that done for the employer. > That doesn't seem to be relevant to the clojure-mode situation, > we now know. The developers objections are others. I'm still not clear to me what the objections really are, if the labor of obtaining the CAs and adapting a version to the emacs development process were provided. This is assuming that the GNU emacs project won't privilege an external project for claiming a standard naming pattern such as "-mode" with no intention of contributing it to the project, and will simply use the name "clojure-mode" as it deems appropriate. It doesn't seem the current situation was anticipated. Lynn