From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New Package for NonGNU-ELPA: clojure-ts-mode Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:03:27 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmxj27fn.fsf@dfreeman.email> <831qfrptiq.fsf@gnu.org> <57429221-d9be-5791-e975-b3539905e2f6@gutov.dev> <83a5udlj47.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5udk1co.fsf@posteo.net> <835y51kslv.fsf@gnu.org> <7a82c524-1aa1-e755-e377-673ebb107a44@gutov.dev> <83r0nok8s4.fsf@gnu.org> <87il90znco.fsf@yahoo.com> <1977fbef-307b-bcf4-9448-64f26916dd65@gutov.dev> <87edjozlqq.fsf@yahoo.com> <43ddad10-49dd-1c49-ebfe-51689780b315@gutov.dev> <87msyciplu.fsf@posteo.net> <83h6okk3oe.fsf@gnu.org> <87edjoindn.fsf@posteo.net> <83bkesjwuk.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkeri1cz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12607"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: bozhidar@batsov.dev, philipk@posteo.net, dmitry@gutov.dev, luangruo@yahoo.com, danny@dfreeman.email, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, manuel.uberti@inventati.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 28 22:04:40 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qaiTX-00033s-KI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:04:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaiSf-0003u9-EZ; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:03:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaiSe-0003tt-3q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:03:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaiSb-0006Sa-R2; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:03:43 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1bf7a6509deso17322375ad.3; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:03:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693253019; x=1693857819; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=qa5342/BXd+Wldj7ROxT6SyyFc9KsNJaDhA0RWPSsKI=; b=W4Dp15n69t7p/F+uSkTwMYTVD8Jp8535MtmZRitxyu81+jhMFRZLaQO6BtlpWMK5cp mOg/ZFBVXULjrukieGmjpFuPXuggJ2oy7Ox0TDsy6Y+VY6dxlUFyHET459DHgEns3Z4R TQH5Axe6vuvCF2CjR8uu6MGXyXC8qmcv4yqHOA6LZHVOwbA8VnLddTZouWxxe3JBrwwJ jDK1NguUm3/Y9jLky74SX9VBvPMoYQwyGgpM90B9T6+WJ4Aq0cSqe5PRENFUgnTPBprc nh6rM3TXSGGK6D3uvSWWBatYle2sKXJ7rmWWiq1oMn/huD0rOOMlvPrlwXhZ/bhAj29U SqnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693253019; x=1693857819; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qa5342/BXd+Wldj7ROxT6SyyFc9KsNJaDhA0RWPSsKI=; b=g8K9mYpdsvp2BbzJspYAwPEerXRHEDeGdaVNsI2wUCpEbx/KExWQcOYYWlHgk2O7Sc a/kOhAehtD+TvavA4qki8Ut+BJARngQFLBYGIUUxxEeAsPH+lLCezxRD/lm0nXi0MYoO 9DZ84D89Z/V5Q3IXOpJDRsuc26cMwCzL6s7GkuZAJlt/rJleq7Rxo+IUM+OFb6lepN70 9dR/FKGyACBNZakYStbbyH8homLtW62Tv5fIO5IZqXBobAqjGUGWjGdlbNlq4VNa6ZmT 21/efe1E+mymSdyUXj7t7Bxsu4THrqdnxNcWjhNA6iO/qkNLUXloELWdmHr0uG9ZysFy 95+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YywM/cH8kqUmoessJ7L5O3826A0GLVH2TqEq40FUNyJn74cG2ZE lXQeEBveWyUhnb1CP/Ru5zOUv1wIT+Y4Q+jaWi8t2LmEr6A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEO/gHXDYQ1VEn+8vQKYPde6+llrdGjHSvFH8zqglzqP+UmlKzNk+wvUnM8GdEDzOZ6f5f19uOb6q8vAs+5Hxo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a46:b0:268:a61:ba86 with SMTP id lb6-20020a17090b4a4600b002680a61ba86mr20531865pjb.16.1693253019473; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:03:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83bkeri1cz.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::633; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x633.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309451 Archived-At: On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:22=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wrote= : > > From: Lynn Winebarger > > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 11:22:21 -0400 > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Philip Kaludercic , dmitry@gutov.dev, > > luangruo@yahoo.com, danny@dfreeman.email, > > Stefan Kangas , Emacs Devel , > > Manuel Uberti > > > > On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Bozhidar Batsov wrote: > > > I believe this conversation has drifted a lot from the original topic= (clojure-ts-mode). I have to say I'm a bit frustrated that every time some= one wants to submit something to NonGNU ELPA there's some push to either su= bmit to GNU ELPA or core instead. I've been maintaining almost all of the C= lojure dev tooling for Emacs for over a decade, so I do believe that by now= I know what I'm doing and how I want to do things. I've said a million tim= es by now that I don't want contributors to have to deal with copyright agr= eements and with quirks/oddities in the Emacs development process. I believ= e that the maintainers who actually work on something should be allowed to = decide how their projects get developed. > > > > > If it wasn't for the copyright assignment requirement, there wouldn't > > be a real issue blocking the incorporation of clojure-mode into core > > emacs. > > That's a far cry from what the above actually says. They also don't > want to deal with the "quirks/oddities" of the Emacs development > process. They quite simply do NOT want clojure-mode to be part of > Emacs. The CA part is just one part of that, and I'm guessing not the > main one. Whether or not a derivative of clojure-mode is incorporated into core emacs is not the same question as whether the external clojure-mode project is subsumed into core emacs development. Given RMS's request to include a clojure mode as a core emacs feature, the required development effort could be spent either maintaining a derivative of the existing software/manuals/etc that complies with the emacs development process or developing the tooling from scratch. Assuming such development resources can be identified, then, as I wrote, the only real issue blocking the incorporation of (some derivative of) that software is the copyright assignment question, assuming any trademark-type issues on the names of the packages are resolved. Whatever authority Bozhidar has is over the project he's a maintainer of, not over emacs or clojure features incorporated in it, or even, frankly, the software produced by his project. It is licensed as free software, after all. The only meaningful constraint on the creation of a fork, major or minor, of free software is the pain involved in maintaining such forks. I'm not sure why you would assume the project that created/maintains/develops an external package would necessarily want to contribute the additional labor required to participate in the emacs development process. If the emacs project wants to incorporate such a package in core, it's not unreasonable to expect it to provide the resources required rather than expecting the additional labor be done by the external project. Lynn