From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 09:11:23 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5uw9ivs.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttt42gna.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <838r9pby47.fsf@gnu.org> <838r9n6vhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834jkb6ucd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5792"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: casouri@gmail.com, danny@dfreeman.email, joaotavora@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 06 15:11:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qdsJy-0001Jq-EP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 15:11:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdsJq-0003wi-S4; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:11:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdsJp-0003tP-CX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:11:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdsJm-00055A-9k; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:11:40 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-26b44247123so2605500a91.2; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 06:11:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694005895; x=1694610695; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=UbZcEr6BnNUZ1bRlcxBVJcUrQSbdyhEnwkJe4AuL4qY=; b=AQCs7q2wwwplzLTlLrBiHE67IGqe0GBzwI260SsIjD/oFPXVIR4lMVEF4zF+tzE3LL w+M/oq2Tj1Y+c1XdumBfeIC3GQ3uS/L2dENqc9cDLiragFiRGW1GZl/d0nsi8/35hMH/ uhu9cvfAgLt3PdnZ1lflGAjakmSR2xs5OAFdSxtmfFfyMwr/gw/ZPDYVR9oj5iQ5g01Q FVU2XyBAY65gubTN+jgHccwpYt2dTXKXYP1aQKg8erD/IxPLVzIfmlD7RFlj5Ew1LPd6 HohMj5kJ88khhm65J7la0OTPTDltbMpNcdlrtmLgjteV+hmDZCWTFioT3WmOm1763Q+Q KZDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1694005895; x=1694610695; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UbZcEr6BnNUZ1bRlcxBVJcUrQSbdyhEnwkJe4AuL4qY=; b=gDUwxMPnsO9vIARqCJER30JiIJAB/TKtGiPHCth3ZVFFlfHxKmIe4rBWJ3W+a1ie8d vaxc00jzRMdhLwg5yxxxpepp0lNucjJGLzCbMagBObqx8elz4BEnMdcMT+pGusfVIiGF 7rgmx+PiIxDkDNMpqgvrwxzn8NzHclimCUwfzl3o+/O7xtL5b1mYgb7jW1IVF517qmsP Fx0RTjEWejj3kiHFhsb2WEwhwDLDTEzu5CZvyLDB1EaoXfGa3h1e0825UOLKLMauJn32 PTKYHDMoxVswCbqBtnlUnH0MJ6MJk2bh2n/WIa+TIksoDEdcZGHVcOG8BJJGeH+jm6pP 9krQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwTqP5s5arXklGeYnJigCaFEBYw2629j1JtA6IEQhLRhwLO/9Y5 zi5nW3/geRTj9Udf0tQjXCtfuj9/MTot6mMcLYSf15Dykzc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHCWMT78JvoeaSbrg5SNRqFzmDGD6+zAy0F2KzVZx5S7W4PwDUd3OdMcVD3N22VGcOX37x+vS/eTMnUdC0wdh0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9747:b0:268:2164:dc93 with SMTP id i7-20020a17090a974700b002682164dc93mr14973513pjw.13.1694005895143; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 06:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834jkb6ucd.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310201 Archived-At: On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 1:27=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Lynn Winebarger > > Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 13:16:40 -0400 > > Cc: casouri@gmail.com, danny@dfreeman.email, joaotavora@gmail.com, > > dmitry@gutov.dev, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 1:02=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wro= te: > > > > From: Lynn Winebarger > > > > Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 12:53:11 -0400 > > > > > > > > > No one who speaks for the project suggested anything like that. = It's > > > > > a non-issue. > > > > > > > > > So, does RMS not speak for the project? > > > > > > Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. Like all of us: sometimes w= e > > > just express a non-obligatory opinions, sometimes we describe a > > > decision made for the project as a whole. There's no one answer; you > > > need to read the fine print. > > > > > > > Am I misreading his message: > > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-08/msg01063.htm= l ? > > > > > > If you think he was saying we will necessarily call our mode > > > clojure-mode, then yes, I believe you are misreading it. From where = I > > > stand, Richard was describing a way to avoid a name conflict. > > > > I was rebutting the phrase "suggested anything like that" above. > > Why would you? What good would it make? In a discussion, attempts to deny observable reality, intentional or not, demean the ability of the other participants to observe that reality and make decisions based on that observable reality. In this case, discussion participants were (and remain) justifiably confused about whether the emacs project would or will develop a library/built-in-package "clojure-mode" independently of the extant third-party package. I might be able to write a dissertation on why living by and promotion of decision-making based on observable reality is a virtue (the classical term for a "good" as you term it). A consensus that cannot withstand the weight of observable reality is no consensus at all. > Please let Stefan and myself decide the policy in these matters here. > It's what we are here for. If we happen to disagree with Richard, we > will work with him to solve the disagreement. I fail to see how I am obstructing you from doing so. You might have made these assurances in private, worked out the policy disagreement with Richard in private, then announced the resolution once you had agreement. I have no objection to your doing so. I am not advocating for one policy, or decision versus any other. What I am advocating, and defending, is the right of the rest of us to develop our own viewpoints based on observable reality. I don't view attempts to manage feelings by denying observable facts as virtuous. Believe me when I say that I am happy you and Stefan and whoever are doing the work of maintaining the overall project and development goals. I am happy to defer to you in these matters. I certainly have no interest in doing that work. But that is the extent of my deference. Maybe there is some confusion on my part as to the nature of this mailing list. The description says it is for "emacs developers". It is not restricted even to "GNU Emacs developers", much less "GNU Emacs contributors". My understanding of an "emacs developer" is one who works on emacs code, whether the C source code or programs written in emacs lisp. That makes this mailing list a natural place to look for advice or feedback from experts in emacs development, or make announcements, recruit assistance, etc from the pool of people interested in doing emacs development, whether that work will ultimately be contributed to the GNU emacs project or not (since I have seen little evidence that statement can be resolved before the work is in fact in a contributable state, if for no other reason). >From what I have observed, the meat and potatoes work involved in coordinating maintenance efforts is done via the bugs email-list and managed by the bug tracker, so these discussions on emacs-devel are not in fact disruptive to such activities. Lynn