From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New Package for NonGNU-ELPA: clojure-ts-mode Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 21:20:09 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83a5udlj47.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5udk1co.fsf@posteo.net> <835y51kslv.fsf@gnu.org> <7a82c524-1aa1-e755-e377-673ebb107a44@gutov.dev> <83r0nok8s4.fsf@gnu.org> <87il90znco.fsf@yahoo.com> <1977fbef-307b-bcf4-9448-64f26916dd65@gutov.dev> <87edjozlqq.fsf@yahoo.com> <43ddad10-49dd-1c49-ebfe-51689780b315@gutov.dev> <87msyciplu.fsf@posteo.net> <83h6okk3oe.fsf@gnu.org> <87edjoindn.fsf@posteo.net> <83bkesjwuk.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkeri1cz.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyz650pf.fsf@dfreeman.email> <878r9u4xwi.fsf@dfreeman.email> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30965"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Eli Zaretskii , bozhidar@batsov.dev, philipk@posteo.net, dmitry@gutov.dev, luangruo@yahoo.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, manuel.uberti@inventati.org To: Danny Freeman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 29 03:21:33 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qanQD-0007qw-0S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 03:21:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qanPJ-0000k0-CN; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 21:20:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qanPI-0000js-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 21:20:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qanP4-0006lD-VG; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 21:20:35 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-44d60bb6aa5so1763328137.2; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 18:20:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693272021; x=1693876821; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=6PoFUgagl6rHm9GGOFiSoP6wvwlQIxkzjIyRxAU4utE=; b=ZmiCvsK42mMWU/IMft1+CGjufnCTKcqiuhw1dBaqGdYPL9lHub5x9SqUcBGeZ99sHK +hNP8kaNwTFuJLx5yvdD9OjQkgJoFM/LfABFzz8IFRm4GdB9LDxNstA2RUyAAnRlQQV3 FGiTEANooYs/eXvZr5Oz5JYQBs4FRAijClYQOOtxLUIZ32LREW4qk5Qy1CNutV0QP7Ne NdGTRsgkumsGA4A6RDJlmWy/afb7UJvMpzjX66DqCuxgB94THrcDZOItCRKG3wmHmtQV J6dWcV6B7atbhsV5KtNupWWXu5KliKQAv3QGTQFvVqREq/p5dV6xcIMzRdQqBBm9dPcw FlFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693272021; x=1693876821; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=6PoFUgagl6rHm9GGOFiSoP6wvwlQIxkzjIyRxAU4utE=; b=EmZz77llk4jYccJFNslfR/yBac9O01YCUZnThOXwUKWhbVO/IjXR9ljpjZNkSZSNR3 tla7x0t/UVaS8PHmbv9rh87lOH5AqYqCW/3GEoFFWfgxB4k9/O/oI5y/R2Auc4fxf5NX P6uR/zJxLFN8miL91x3gSA+Wc/rNrTlX85rCAFPXxMoZqTGgibeRVbGTGaY7Q8ocv/GO r52prMZFzpHXlinmotrtqJercoROVK/PKVHX8vifG6gMW8gPaeqEPVbPoY8/hIBQs5FG lHsGZ/vFly0WKc8sfy0/iOXLrw9Ire+71x9DcSmC3DXhundv+HxwArbSGhq3Ge4ZHDXh 2Eyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxeN1I/LweEPEjJSMYuRFrOIc17tnA6uwrvHYyi3QxACVcetoZo qKZHdK8S9h4rR0srVeOEa6sfdyHybyDn/TyDRz3bPBjeuHfM0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE2i15kKvPzSrf7qPmSBe1eksVj/nWGa5rcCpzMWrm/6uTRVjLZ3xbzDjJBALo0Fz49YCejD6xb1Uff5t1PizI= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f70b:0:b0:44d:4385:1627 with SMTP id m11-20020a67f70b000000b0044d43851627mr22741475vso.14.1693272021232; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878r9u4xwi.fsf@dfreeman.email> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309464 Archived-At: On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 6:14=E2=80=AFPM Danny Freeman wrote: > Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > > On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM Danny Freeman wrote: > > > >> I would once again like to ask, who is asking for this? > > > > Noone. Noone asked that clojure stuff be forked or anything like that. You both are reading far more into the term "fork" than there is. "Fork" does not imply "schism", at least in modern usage. A fork is just a downstream repo that independently maintains a set of changes relative to an upstream project. AFAIK, every linux distribution maintains its own fork of GNU emacs in the form of a patchset, and maintains those forks of older versions with bug and security fixes long after GNU emacs has stopped supporting them. Go to any git-based forge and there's probably a "fork" button for any given repo. Personally, I would prefer "fork" not be considered to refer to projects that have diverged to the point of being unmanageable. > People are literally suggesting exactly this in the comments above. In the sense that core emacs could distribute a downstream version of clojure-mode (or whatever) in the same way linux distributions provide forks of major software packages modified to suit their preferred tooling, processes, principles, etc, yes. I don't see a GNU emacs developer integrating an upstream package into the Emacs project as particularly different from a linux distribution customizing the free software it bundles, as long as there is no misrepresentation as to its provenance or trademark-type concerns. I really do not get how people publish software under a free license while retaining a proprietary view of people publishing variations of their work. But don't take my views as representative in any way of the emacs project. I just wrote what I thought were the implications of RMS's email, versus Eli's conclusion. If the issue is only the effort involved in obtaining CA's and dealing with the emacs development process, that does not intrinsically rule out the emacs project as a downstream publisher of clojure-mode. I only wrote that I think it's fair for clojure-mode developers to expect the emacs project to provide that labor, where Eli's position seemed to me to be that the upstream project would be required to be swallowed into the emacs project. > it would be good if the flagship FSF project Emacs had some clojure > > support under its umbrella, and invited your project to come on board. > > I'm not taking any issue with this. I was more than happy to answer > questions about it at the start of this thread. If I were developing > this on my own I would probably accept that invitation, but I'm not. > > > Many third-party projects that benefit from the incalculable amount > > of work put in by FSF's developers and volunteers who have signed CAs > > throughout almost 4 decades would find this invitation a privilege, > > maybe in recognition that united we stand, divided we fall. But noone, > > absolutely noone, can force you or coerce you to accept the invitation > > or even stand in the way if you or Bozidhar want to pursue other > > paths. And noone has done that. So no need for persecutory delusions > > that the FSF secret police is going to extort CAs from your developers > > to fork and undermine your project. Unless you read something different than I did, RMS's emails explicitly requested a built-in clojure mode, whether that was derived from the existing external package or not. I agree there is no attempt to "extort" CAs from the developers of the existing external package. > > The reason I wrote that is because in the message directly before mine > from Lynn: > > >> Whether or not a derivative of clojure-mode is incorporated into core > >> emacs is not the same question as whether the external clojure-mode > >> project is subsumed into core emacs development. Given RMS's request > >> to include a clojure mode as a core emacs feature, the required > >> development effort could be spent either maintaining a derivative of > >> the existing software/manuals/etc that complies with the emacs > >> development process or developing the tooling from scratch. Assuming > >> such development resources can be identified, then, as I wrote, the > >> only real issue blocking the incorporation of (some derivative of) > >> that software is the copyright assignment question, assuming any > >> trademark-type issues on the names of the packages are resolved. > > is suggesting that someone could take on the task of obtaining CAs and > forking. All I am asking is that NOT be done, not having "delusions". I just said "derivative of", which might only mean an older version with minor modifications required to conform to GNU coding standards, like not referencing non-free software, etc. If that would entail a schism-level "fork" (in your terms), then it would probably not be worth the effort. Also, presumably if Bozidhar and other major contributors were not willing to sign a CA, it (the incorporation of the existing clojure-mode package in core emacs) would probably be a moot issue anyway. That being said, any contributor who has retained their copyright doesn't need permission from anyone to sign a CA with the FSF or anyone else for that matter. I'm not sure why anyone would have an objection to that. > > > Remember that NonGNU Elpa was > > created by Emacs devs just to service projects like yours. And your > > original request has been serviced already, free of charge. > > > > Jo=C3=A3o > > And I am very grateful my project was accepted into NonGNU Elpa. But now > I am trying to act in what I believe are the best interests of > clojure-mode by avoiding a fork. Back to the original point, then, RMS requested emacs incorporate a built-in clojure mode. The members of the emacs project have every bit as much right to provide a built-in clojure mode as the contributors to the clojure-emacs project have to develop that project as they see fit. If anything, Bozhidar's standing to object to the course of development of the GNU Emacs project has been severely diminished by his explicit rejection of the invitation to participate in it. There is neither conflict nor coercion in either of these positions. I think the emacs developers have been pretty gracious about it, really. Lynn