From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Builder, a build system integration for Emacs Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 18:59:35 -0400 Message-ID: References: <95980ffc-86e7-ad54-4a20-539d8c6ea5d0@mailo.com> <3f68f4bc-d426-0bcc-1329-674c12b29386@mailo.com> <76e12f7c-335f-476b-ffb3-fd8e8e4ab5d0@mailo.com> <87pm6rx4ea.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn0ytefw.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009eb94905fca0b1a4" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20509"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 27 01:00:47 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q2gQQ-0005Au-94 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 27 May 2023 01:00:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2gPh-0007MC-KR; Fri, 26 May 2023 19:00:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2gPf-0007LL-LI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 May 2023 18:59:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2gPd-00053Z-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 May 2023 18:59:59 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1ae875bf125so8579925ad.1 for ; Fri, 26 May 2023 15:59:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1685141989; x=1687733989; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kS6l5dIKPHqX9sXemIt7w7erELNo5x2JnF/SgrLsKv4=; b=rWcuO+PA8mINd73ra7doBPyJfsKXpFboote1RHWtEt9qrOXay3/JVnlxRQ6kX+ddDU DAzrpKz0Ei10oZc8ECKO+Ul8LcDKY1zn+V5KZ3RGSpTELRsXH2d/HZeBrLShn/k9SUjx bcrarymSa5pcWYkhF+RD19hDbvm6c3fGmjVbIcBJNXocFXX42kbZhBHxR6lyY4pcyrEw Av54pj6It/yrr6yOsYNErG5BlR/d3q7y+uSlY1l3wg9zLS8G9RHaz/Vjl4L/C83qhKK1 pWNngFlkh4M/S0iXzPbz0QBkEa7pVIRqL7APrCR91Ult0ZC8lAeAQkbq8SpG6eK+JsIn SIGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685141989; x=1687733989; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=kS6l5dIKPHqX9sXemIt7w7erELNo5x2JnF/SgrLsKv4=; b=ls3sRNzJ88TLp5c70+keWQaJGRxBI0QmSToOMj1wPTykRZQuh3cLJ7airExmNZP7DS xdM9DEgw4K7+7YM9wmhHt5h7RHlKmvJ9ix02u56bg8KIVxh0itd4aH9q84psjSqF5DYR 6eG6eHmJ9WWtMfJPf7A55hwb25l5Gezs91SMNZ0SAebM8+FmyjaZLuRztqzYuBBvwoGM IuXPc8/4Jj5D/4+W9w42lvB4x9LlqHOwRE5ynUeUeZiQ4f99sgH3qJIusQMVl2JrkLQZ 7ubUCblY1qLtk7Ni7KCwRIVAqFCz0yyt8o5tkplr++UJgXvaxtl/yYYKFepiFzM9KjG9 gl1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDx8pXjFq8RDNAQu4zhIT33CoObGdWiEkmbkGJ6B5C/uaTk3quk8 ui8MkAj1fyHnSCDocM67xNCUZLHlI7Ngm+3NUNE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ7mgnnEwAbzybW7K44NXcJEmZuO5ZkxkyXTCBSeh5tpujW/IE5yfmhF0rJqMcRdx6QMTtxKiL43bYfjxtJzzqs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:308c:b0:1ae:56ff:74a with SMTP id u12-20020a170903308c00b001ae56ff074amr3437207plc.58.1685141988488; Fri, 26 May 2023 15:59:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306357 Archived-At: --0000000000009eb94905fca0b1a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:55 AM Gregory Heytings wrote: > > >> Cargo is a program that runs locally, not a server. It works like > >> make, except that it may communicate with the crates.io repository, to > >> fetch a copy of the source code (and the license) of the libraries you > >> need to build a given Rust program, and that are not yet available > >> locally. > > > > ... akin to npm (the Node package manager of the Javascript world), it > > downloads half of the Internet while building and makes your life > > miserable if you want to avoid that. > > > > The new models just make it slightly more inconvenient to stay free. > > > > You are spreading FUD. When you want to compile, say, Emacs, you need to > either download the binaries of the libraries that are not yet available > locally and their headers, or download the source of these libraries and > build them. Doing that does not "donwload half of the Internet". After > this you need to run the "configure" script which checks which libraries > (and sometimes which versions of these libraries) are available. > > Cargo does all that for you. > > > > > Can we call this pattern neo-proprietary? > > > > No, we cannot. There is no relation whatsoever between software > proprietariness and this elegant solution to the problem of library > dependencies. > "Elegant" is a strong characterization of the practice of "vendoring" source dependencies, which you describe here. It's useful if you are maintaining a replicable build process common in corporate software environments and projects meant to distribute prebuilt binaries to the mass-market. Vendoring is distinctly unfriendly to users that want to build or tinker with it locally using locally available (and user-vetted) libraries, i.e. classic free software users. Can "crates.io" be replaced by a different package repository, or configured to work with whatever is available locally? Lynn --0000000000009eb94905fca0b1a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:55 AM Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>> Cargo is a program that runs locally, not a server.=C2=A0 It works= like
>> make, except that it may communicate with the crates.io repo= sitory, to
>> fetch a copy of the source code (and the license) of the libraries= you
>> need to build a given Rust program, and that are not yet available=
>> locally.
>
> ... akin to npm (the Node package manager of the Javascript world), it=
> downloads half of the Internet while building and makes your life
> miserable if you want to avoid that.
>
> The new models just make it slightly more inconvenient to stay free. >

You are spreading FUD.=C2=A0 When you want to compile, say, Emacs, you need= to
either download the binaries of the libraries that are not yet available locally and their headers, or download the source of these libraries and build them.=C2=A0 Doing that does not "donwload half of the Internet&q= uot;.=C2=A0 After
this you need to run the "configure" script which checks which li= braries
(and sometimes which versions of these libraries) are available.

Cargo does all that for you.

>
> Can we call this pattern neo-proprietary?
>

No, we cannot.=C2=A0 There is no relation whatsoever between software
proprietariness and this elegant solution to the problem of library
dependencies.


"Elegant" is a strong ch= aracterization of the practice of "vendoring" source dependencies= , which you describe here.=C2=A0 It's useful if you are maintaining a r= eplicable build process common in corporate software environments and proje= cts meant to distribute prebuilt binaries to the mass-market.=C2=A0 Vendori= ng is distinctly unfriendly to users that want to build or tinker with it l= ocally using locally available (and user-vetted) libraries, i.e. classic fr= ee software users.

Can &= quot;crates.io" be replaced by a diff= erent package repository, or configured to work with whatever is available = locally?

Lynn

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