From: Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: johnw@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: A proposal for removing obsolete packages
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 01:08:35 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAM6wYYJWMSV2qWqDNVQR1A4Umd3peh=4__8sdJshaWSgb+Ok=g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m2egd76b8u.fsf@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 8:02 PM Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>
> >> Here are the packages that are eligible for deletion in Emacs 25 (all
> >> obsolete since before Emacs 24):
> >>
> >> options
> >
> > FWIW, wrt `options.el':
> >
> > 1. Command `list-options' lists all user options, together with their
> > current values and their documentation.
> >
> > That still seems useful to me. If it is not, we should tell users
> > what is its specific replacement.
> >
> > I see only this in the doc string of `list-options':
> >
> > "It is now better to use Customize instead."
> >
> > ("instead" is redundant here, BTW.)
> >
> > And this message is shown at the top of the `list-options' output:
> >
> > "This facility is obsolete; we recommend using M-x customize instead."
> >
> > Really? Just how do you "use Customize" to get a listing such as
> > `list-options' provides? How do you use `M-x customize' to get
> > such a listing?
> >
> > I don't think you can get such a listing. Certainly not with just
> > `M-x customize'. And `customize-apropos .*' doesn't give you the
> > same thing (no complete doc strings, and not just options, etc.).
> >
> > If I'm right that there is no real substitute provided by Customize
> > then I think that command `list-options' (renamed, if necessary)
> > should be kept. It could be moved to one of the `cus*.el' files,
> > if you really plan to toss `options.el'.
>
> I hadn't used options before, but I tried now. I guess I don't see the
> usefulness of the command. What I thought you were described above
> seems useful indeed - a list of everything customized (for those who
> don't want to fiddle with elisp). But list-options instead gives much,
> much more than that in a buffer 38k lines long. What is the use of
> this, and why is it more useful than, say, customize-browse?
>
Actually, after a few minutes of looking at customize, I see there is both
customize-saved (to customize everything the user has customized with
customize) and customize-rogue (to customize everything else that is
customized outside of customize). These should, hopefully, solve your
use-case. Does it?
>
> >
> >
> > 2. Similarly, I think that command `edit-options' is still useful.
> >
> > And yes, I'm familiar with Customize, and I use it often. But I
> > don't see that it replaces the specific behavior offered by
> > `options.el'. If I'm right about `edit-options' not having a
> > replacement, please consider keeping it too, possibly moving it
> > to one of the `cus*.el' files.
> >
> >
> > 3. It is true that `edit-options' does not DTRT when an option has
> > a `:set' function etc. It simply uses `set' to set the new value.
> > (This is true also of command `set-variable', BTW.) To improve it,
> > we could make it use a Customize function such as
> > `customize-set-variable', which does DTRT.
> >
> >
> > 4. I might have said the above when `options.el' was considered
> > for deprecation. Dunno.
> >
> > In any case, I've said it now - I don't see why this library needs
> > to be deprecated, much less removed. It represents zero maintenance
> > burden, unless I'm missing something.
> >
> > Sure, we want to encourage users to use Customize for most of their
> > user-option needs. But I don't see the specific features offered
> > by `options.el' being provided by Customize. And I think they are
> > useful features.
> >
> > For all the user complaints we hear about Customize (and I generally
> > defend Customize, though I agree that the UI leaves something to be
> > desired), I do not recall a single complaint about the commands
> > `list-options' and `edit-options'. The listing is clear and easy
> > to use.
> >
> > Given #3, above, we could decide to keep only `list-options', but I
> > think a better approach would be to keep both, possibly improving
> > `edit-options' to take `:set' etc. into account. Another alternative
> > would be for the editing keys to just pop to a relevant Customize
> > buffer for the given option.
> >
> > `options.el' provides a useful view of the user options. I think
> > that such a view is missing with Customize.
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-01-24 1:08 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 128+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-01-11 3:09 A proposal for removing obsolete packages Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-11 14:41 ` Phillip Lord
2016-01-11 15:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-12 4:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-01-19 5:28 ` John Wiegley
2016-01-20 2:54 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-20 7:25 ` John Wiegley
2016-01-20 17:05 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-20 17:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-20 19:52 ` John Wiegley
2016-01-20 20:38 ` Andrés Ramírez
2016-01-20 20:46 ` John Wiegley
2016-01-20 20:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-20 21:03 ` Andrés Ramírez
2016-01-21 3:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-23 21:22 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-21 3:02 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-23 21:15 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-23 22:03 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-24 1:02 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-24 1:08 ` Andrew Hyatt [this message]
2016-01-24 1:56 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-24 21:44 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-25 2:37 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-25 1:42 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-25 4:41 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-25 15:37 ` Entering Unicode characters Richard Stallman
2016-01-25 16:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-25 17:20 ` Vivek Dasmohapatra
2016-01-25 17:51 ` Teemu Likonen
2016-01-25 20:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-26 1:24 ` Vivek Dasmohapatra
2016-01-26 3:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-25 18:59 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-01-25 19:28 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-26 8:38 ` Oleh Krehel
2016-01-25 21:36 ` Tianxiang Xiong
2016-01-25 22:17 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-25 22:26 ` Tianxiang Xiong
2016-01-26 9:39 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-26 10:55 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-26 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-26 14:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-01-26 21:41 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-27 3:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-27 6:01 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-28 23:16 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-29 8:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-29 15:51 ` handa
2016-01-29 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-29 16:24 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-01-30 3:03 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-30 7:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-30 7:36 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2016-01-30 7:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-30 12:16 ` handa
2016-01-30 13:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-27 0:47 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-26 11:31 ` Yuri Khan
2016-01-27 0:46 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-26 12:40 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-01-26 15:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-01-27 0:47 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-26 17:08 ` Tianxiang Xiong
2016-01-26 17:37 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-26 18:08 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-01-26 18:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-06 11:56 ` Helmut Eller
2016-02-06 12:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-06 13:59 ` Helmut Eller
2016-02-06 14:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-12 11:20 ` Helmut Eller
2016-02-07 18:33 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-07 18:42 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-02-08 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-02-08 14:25 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-02-09 12:14 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-09 17:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-10 0:12 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-10 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-11 18:19 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-07 22:02 ` John Wiegley
2016-02-08 13:02 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-08 17:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-09 12:14 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-09 13:26 ` Dale Snell
2016-02-10 0:11 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-09 17:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-09 6:01 ` Alexis
2016-02-09 15:21 ` Drew Adams
2016-02-10 0:11 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-10 1:16 ` Alexis
2016-02-10 14:16 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-11 18:59 ` John Wiegley
[not found] ` <<E1aTINY-0007Rg-IA@fencepost.gnu.org>
2016-02-10 2:07 ` Drew Adams
2016-02-10 4:14 ` Elias Mårtenson
2016-02-10 14:15 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-10 0:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-02-10 4:17 ` Jose E. Marchesi
2016-02-08 14:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-02-12 11:32 ` Helmut Eller
2016-02-13 15:32 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <<E1aO05V-0007eR-Kw@fencepost.gnu.org>
2016-01-26 16:58 ` Drew Adams
2016-01-25 13:01 ` A proposal for removing obsolete packages Stefan Monnier
2016-01-26 9:36 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-26 10:30 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-01-27 0:46 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-27 1:03 ` Alexis
2016-01-27 22:53 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-27 8:41 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-01-25 15:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<m2a8nu46ff.fsf@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<E1aNjCP-0004Ya-Si@fencepost.gnu.org>
2016-01-25 16:04 ` Entering Unicode characters Drew Adams
2016-01-25 16:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-01-26 16:43 ` A proposal for removing obsolete packages John Wiegley
2016-01-26 17:32 ` John Wiegley
2016-02-03 4:45 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-12 5:25 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-12 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-12 5:25 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-12 21:49 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-14 5:19 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-17 22:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-01-14 23:09 ` Phillip Lord
2016-01-16 4:13 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-16 19:10 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-18 18:47 ` Andrew Hyatt
2016-01-19 13:51 ` Richard Stallman
2016-01-19 14:54 ` Phillip Lord
[not found] <<m28u3wak2g.fsf@gmail.com>
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