From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Immanuel Litzroth Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 13:14:41 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2072586596250829960==" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27446"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 06 13:15:43 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sbIAI-00070l-Ld for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 13:15:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbIA4-000846-Kk; 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Tue, 06 Aug 2024 04:15:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::133; envelope-from=immanuel.litzroth@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x133.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:1210 Archived-At: --===============2072586596250829960== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ae03f061f01e884" --0000000000009ae03f061f01e884 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matthias Felleisen has done work on comparing programming languages: https://jgbm.github.io/eecs762f19/papers/felleisen.pdf Also some of the practical aspects of using Python vs other languages have been documented here: https://haslab.github.io/SAFER/scp21.pdf i On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:03=E2=80=AFPM Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hello, Emanuel. > > On Mon, Aug 05, 2024 at 00:55:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote: > > Jeremy Bryant wrote: > > > > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming > > > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant > > > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp. > > > It will give you standard for measuring other languages. > > > Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant > > are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical > > engineering one can measure it. > > > > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs > > > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp > > > superior, but not all of them. > > > Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing > > to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an > > alternative to Python 2024. > > > It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from > > our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and > > high on Lisp. > > > Lisp's superiority is a myth. > > > To me it is more like a drug :) > > To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's > essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9 > novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but > not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages. > > My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that > Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most > programmers. For those who succeed in learning it, their productivity > will be enormous whilst using it. Maybe this productivity could be > matched by other "strange" languages (Haskell, perhaps?), but not by > "normal" languages such as C, C++, Java, Python or perl. I think it a > pity that a moderate sized Lisp, something around the size of Emacs Lisp > without the cl-* extensions, never made it as a general purpose language > alongside the above. > > > -- > > underground experts united > > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > > --- > via emacs-tangents mailing list ( > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents) > --=20 -- A man must either resolve to point out nothing new or to become a slave to defend it. -- Sir Isaac Newton --0000000000009ae03f061f01e884 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matthias Felleisen has done work on comparing programming = languages:
https://jgbm.github.io/eecs762f19/papers/felleisen.pdf
Also so= me of the practical aspects of using Python vs other languages have
been= documented here:
h= ttps://haslab.github.io/SAFER/scp21.pdf
i

On Mon, = Aug 5, 2024 at 10:03=E2=80=AFPM Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
Hello, Emanuel.

On Mon, Aug 05, 2024 at 00:55:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Jeremy Bryant wrote:

> > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.

> Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> engineering one can measure it.

> > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs=
> > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > superior, but not all of them.

> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> alternative to Python 2024.

> It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
> our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
> high on Lisp.

> Lisp's superiority is a myth.

> To me it is more like a drug :)

To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's
essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9=
novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages.

My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that
Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most
programmers.=C2=A0 For those who succeed in learning it, their productivity=
will be enormous whilst using it.=C2=A0 Maybe this productivity could be matched by other "strange" languages (Haskell, perhaps?), but not= by
"normal" languages such as C, C++, Java, Python or perl.=C2=A0 I = think it a
pity that a moderate sized Lisp, something around the size of Emacs Lisp without the cl-* extensions, never made it as a general purpose language alongside the above.

> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.= gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)


--
-- A man must either resolve to point out nothing new or to = become a slave to defend it. -- Sir Isaac Newton
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