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logging-data="34944"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 62720@debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@gmail.com, philipk@posteo.net, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 14 21:02:20 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pnOgd-0008tq-WE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:02:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pnOgO-00067G-Vm; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:02:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pnOgN-00063C-Gh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:02:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pnOgM-0000VJ-OF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; 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Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:01:42 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oa1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1879edfeff5so5822619fac.4 for <62720@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 12:01:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681498895; x=1684090895; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=467KQmFeZzcczccpXltiQTwfFsdBZ3bK4KCekXx35AY=; b=mwErbNiMJAkiltiIa1lAeaj/JfOp6LB3VPod5LiDJRp2rY0qmlmpdRarkjjOv2grQt 5r7Il3g2Mg2Ha3yqeRmN+8Fl8Hhs9GuM+WOZZWael0umwTj3g8Z4NQ1jFYd4ELxGws2B ocf+atXJZOkVWp5aMi64W6uUpkD6vsLBRfoiw4444m7kOGqrIzSK0kd0ql6zm3HghqGp MsTU5PE+uNeLZwS653qB96eFTHM7pUjPcpFwhnMezfrIkxE2scz2j50e1MBOMcdIHp4W l3vGnEofitUvB+jioWkdyaMYLr6uXMBy0ojpJmNAn/lpfDaG469VmRUvdjV3w7BEsNV2 IUrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681498895; x=1684090895; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=467KQmFeZzcczccpXltiQTwfFsdBZ3bK4KCekXx35AY=; b=jVmCq4wXJkUlPZwSLl1RcJGcjHB1U7nfK8EdBPhZdfHnwVIBzLIC8WJqmH8jMSQGUh De1rQ+9vFPHyLPgjc8+t4ynOZoRYnCBe77o3pld5zDQOklGGox8oWoY5KAgiSQ90MWIY XCYOpbPXkpJH0ywFPCQV9AvYarE39AmMamo08AHpz/j3OTSjfB2q5qaFGQlj4A7B5N7j mXmAL1hlnbUHncqizNREJdcJRmpqA9BYqxJuPWap1L2Nf1ZEyy02Q0Zb9QBwbFKNWu6q 142ZLFAuQEAfWgQlPemMJA3HicaXGZNb6EMIcyK5sW1lP8MqazcI6+wR5LfvUTc8G0yt lylQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9ekBP6CtLVIac9FYd21Rg75F3yEIlfJV13GzWEYD7KOj9G2nDgJ 0wJKx0f5wgaUtd+yJWlSJRhIT+YpMle1psBj1VI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350agkKk4hPRQj7lnCI7IWPTsqiqjbPyWYf3vUjSuMqY+vmp9FujN7ei2SZPSgEpmUJJaIG9jGpzY0JYsPX+fG7s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8a22:b0:184:2097:e64f with SMTP id p34-20020a0568708a2200b001842097e64fmr3372381oaq.5.1681498895191; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83zg7ae1ud.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:259962 Archived-At: On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 7:49=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:32:40 +0100 > > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rpluim@gmail.com, 62720@debbugs.gnu.org, > > larsi@gnus.org, philipk@posteo.net > > > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 6:49=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wr= ote: > > > > > when you say "compatibility", you seem to have only one its aspect in > > > mind: that of Eglot. But that is not the only aspect of the previous > > > behavior, and I, at least, must consider those other aspects as well. > > > > You seem to be worried about "everyone else" typing, say, M-x package-i= nstall > > RET seq RET and getting an updated 'seq' as a result. > > That, too. But also everything else. Any incompatible change of > behavior can potentially break someone's workflow. Of course. But what is this "everything else" pandora's box that the solution I'm proposing unleashes? I just don't see the connection. > > OK, but who does this and why, in your opinion? And who has > > `(package-install seq)` in their config and why? And won't they get > > the same updated 'seq' "accidentally" if they install anything else > > that depends on newer seq, which is likely a lot of non-core > > packages and likely to grow? > > I don't know. But we did have core packages that were also on ELPA > before Emacs 29, and people did get along with that. So much so that > I don't recall any complaints about this, definitely not complaints > that claimed package.el is as badly broken as you seem to represent. I think it's simply and clearly because there weren't any non-core packages that migrated to core before. Were there? Certainly none with as fast a release cycle like Eglot's. > > But even if these people and use cases did exist, you're still > > plainly misrepresenting my position by writing that I'm "calling > > for breaking" them. > > I said "in effect calling for breaking them". You need to realize > this might be the outcome of what you are requesting, even if your > intentions are benign. I _am_ realizing that, and even if I think the risks are minuscule, I'm providing solutions that mitigate them. And -- responsibly, I think -- pointing to the fact that the risk surface is much larger than you may think it is. > > I even proposed making a simple whitelist of packages that have > > migrated from outside core to core. And I've proposed confirmation > > prompts for the interactive calls. And others have proposed > > blacklists. These things are trivial to implement in Elisp. > > They are not trivial enough to be considered for emacs-29. On master, > sure, feel free to install such changes, if the others agree. Are you saying it's OK to propose this blacklist/whitelist idea? I will work and prepare that patch if you promise to at least look at the code, follow the logic with me and consider the patch for backporting if it's as safe as relying on a simple `(if (memq package package-safely-upgradeable-builtins) ...)` If you don't want to do that, I'm not going to propose it, because that in effect means I'm adding code that will only have any effect in the Emacs 30 release, and the Emacs 29 will be a very odd release in this aspect for several years to come. And this is an even worse outcome. Jo=C3=A3o