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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 15:39:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <83sf5fyx60.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7g3ynjp.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38175"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acm@muc.de, dmitry@gutov.dev, bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 16:40:16 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r178h-0009h5-9b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:40:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r178b-0005xy-4c; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:40:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r178Y-0005xY-MW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:40:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r178W-00051B-Sw; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:40:06 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507cee17b00so1258419e87.2; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 07:40:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699544401; x=1700149201; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=5AklbwmL/P3nKopnHn36Nm7tUy47XwymxePzDs7/2Uk=; b=dU2Q2mhUjJKWrQsenFQ8x+j0Bk4R2GaeHeCvIxS5iiHeHfN7ya4207owV2rEk2fZ12 IGXnwC4JX1e2D80hLRzME8OCQeZ56qMCLq3cDTGwxyIfK5x7ZggB8Xqgw7OuIEZCKGTI dl3VVHB4RMlvIQ9beFbqdZIJ8xo2URq+SUtpIAqzlfTrdk3A0IccpwUa870Gt5/iYiZe 1p8RnrzBpABHjrJPyL5iaDsCUL4eY3i/v1uilB+vFplXmPL8J3nRC1Mkbjv3+Y7sJ8OZ t5nHSKL3AjbRZ8tKfZtgIRomtSzT95ge4GnNep4jBHWvzxI/XsflRgDKSEDzjZuqJiBS b3Uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699544401; x=1700149201; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5AklbwmL/P3nKopnHn36Nm7tUy47XwymxePzDs7/2Uk=; b=in7EdVbkOH0a+w9LNEvlguiH0mT09m7AHOdV7adxJTT+IQQej5H0CHkBRR8StpWzi6 Pz+gNo4Lfc9MO5ytyBXhEW9Qxv1+VnmCXlQ8bm3j+aWvkfrr51HI1dWEmFRHAI8Lr0fj Udoi/lN81xGyi45f+yBD4B828EY3rsX3oRmWTW72ch5avSy8O38ywnO+7rA452v5+HRd H4s8qJbrDfqTw/KtKrOx0YsCXg2lZ2uoEvoDehJF7sZz7KUKn+QHqYGUr3/PC5IfUaTh Zn9Ah5+cchfsGr3L0Vzz6cm7hFXJy5uTiHL08dw4tNnaJ86OcZhIe7pHwf9hG8/p80+C ggrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy81ewciTUHjVz3f/WykeZ8+lvifRFkyt/JP2oklNxtvbKNRTay lcne/H6cFQOqbLk2g/flhU1XqZSS2ZvQ9TocxId2WQjh3YBe3Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGeOJm/8k4P2nhZjZi19WiwNsGGjuyYm6SoXOMfvMOCszthBbo/DZvt4UOtozjgYgLUMtqk7XRdX59S8Rh2zIE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:114c:b0:509:30d4:ea92 with SMTP id m12-20020a056512114c00b0050930d4ea92mr1904325lfg.52.1699544400531; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 07:40:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83o7g3ynjp.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::131; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x131.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312423 Archived-At: On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 3:05=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > that I didn't care to take a look at in a reasonable time frame? More > > importantly, to what extent are you and others significantly or often > > hindered by the style I use there? > > I said nothing about your style. Neither do I doubt that you know > your own code very well. We all know our own code well. I'm asking > you not to judge the burden of the maintainers in maintaining code > they didn't write nor even see, until you get to our place and do it > for a while. Okay, and what I tried to say is that I _do_ have a valid judgement of exactly this burden, to some quite significant degree, because not only do I maintain "my" code, I have to wade through a lot of code that I didn't write. I didn't write any of icomplete.el and yet managed to significantly enhance it, for example. Or elisp-mode.el, or minibuffer.el. Or flymake.el, which I rewrote, backward compatibly. Or eldoc.el, where I did likewise. Or electric.el or so many other pieces of code I have to visit and read to make sense of Emacs. These aren't trivial files they're much larger. I go wherever M-. takes me. So I have to read and understand lots of "alien" code in styles that wouldn't be my first preference if I had written it from scratch, often styles that lead to many "blerghs" and "yucks" which I know we all do. And sometimes that alien code was written by myself a longer time ago. And what I'm trying to say is that all those difficulties are much much less importnat than shortcomings in domain knowledge. > Only then you will be able to realize the role of > obscure programming style and use of unfamiliar syntax in making the > job harder than it has to be. I am prepared to admit that that impact is heavier to someone like you who is the first responder for any and every report to parts of Emacs you didn't even know existed. But I don't think a uniform programming style, if that even exists (let alone being feasible to enforce) would make your job much easier. Maybe _somewhat_ easier, but to what loss? Aggravated contributors, endless hair-splitting of what exactly good style is. And style preferences change anyway: what I "liked" 10 years ago is not what I like now. It's really a bad idea. But it's definitely a good idea to review any _new_ contributions to basic Elisp constructs clearly. I'm not proposing a free-for-all. I've said this often without any kind of irony or sarcasm that I think you're an excellent maintainer. This is not to "butter you up": I want you to be happy maintaining Emacs for a long time. IMHO, if I am allowed, you should keep doing what you do, which is try to ping the specialists in each domain, and prompt non-specialists too like you did with bug#66970, to which I hope to have provided at least the start of a fix. Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora