From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:10:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1f6s3eb.fsf@yahoo.com> <878r75sqby.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4571"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Dmitry Gutov , =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIEJpZGFy?= , emacs-devel To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 11 13:08:35 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1mmw-00013W-Lf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 13:08:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1mmB-0000cz-D8; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:07:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1mm5-0000Xy-Cm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:07:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1mm3-0006G0-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:07:41 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c594196344so36178921fa.3 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 04:07:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699704457; x=1700309257; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bm148WgIf2R+Td3/6skDRkWEly+0q0kMW5rr8ZUteDg=; b=asXXwI82J4SDIdotKJbKQ0ZuNrwkcmDAQtyLNMcQRQC7qRgiyN/lcsDAVG2zxo+Oqi qkqDoJICy5TJbaspdlkjO66eKBPweaxROjSnVj0UqcSdEYw+Ss+0CguEerh4xUjw3X3l z3wU/0Hi+feyiQXqp70k8HK2GBFfKS41xVdGdlcncI8pOnvWGB19xzntLi6poBw2hp/Q vYYepDbagkqRBc4DwT4TqEqCMDrEZWsTBl4qOd0fsYUs52HG6Ii7pW5VqY/3PtMLPlo5 VfSFdkpKIPb/Ix7vZuevTdWA7LFm5ONAdJLxOnEHMyDIppfGpuIzuIkqHwL3DZcYDT5X 0jig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699704457; x=1700309257; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bm148WgIf2R+Td3/6skDRkWEly+0q0kMW5rr8ZUteDg=; b=xUjVRvKr13YKsACwLgnYXNoKnXQKpjJGzcV5cBdcz3HEaVx4tb7saV94cIpLkXXx14 HnE+6HDRDWCWq+6E96/AxSJd4jKjwdA/woEyRFHVMlw8/BRuFblFTgrTPl1Ie48MN4eD juC4CTYh2830bQyVkNAN0Ux+Ms6xson7vFFCRML4q/jCNBz+BUZG/t1LztyA86a8P/CA G3Y6DixkTVUIIlcPMQmvzIHsr0J9irfzwA+d+MjI8+OU+z2UhcDuCDk3WPFIgZW5Gx6O 0Ke0THqm/JKZam3f9kbuVbgFE5aF4GPwK6KUoTJGkxQR5ckVMBHwDoyt4J2RZnBVl3Iy zesA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyn2e15eSdv7jKBNVt5QckChsM4F/cZeXMD1FxMIK5hG9xhAg9R kE+5J+BFKz7x0HlIjCOPPaC1AnSgYrux2jpEISc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEaGeDVZIJIe9tYjkW+OACErmFSTHzDYJ/LQ97F8+Req8nNtQ/yOA27tNDZU3xC8EJ7FErL4pyygzSbVayJ3JE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1243:b0:507:a001:792e with SMTP id fb3-20020a056512124300b00507a001792emr1389055lfb.46.1699704457386; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 04:07:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::236; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x236.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312545 Archived-At: On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 12:38=E2=80=AFAM Po Lu wrote: > > No, but you do, in actual source code! That was my point! You > > have these fine abstractions to common operations like intersecting > > sets, finding indices, and so much more, and you prefer to handroll > > your expanded versions each time instead of going through a function > > of an established library. > > These "fine abstractions" are also abstruse, while the set of primitives > you never hesitate to impugn have carried Emacs through its entire > existence. Where in heck did I "impugn" Emacs's Lisp primitives?? I use them all the time!! I just think it's a really really bad idea to use them exclusively, almost religiously, to inline existing utils in write-only code. When given the opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of this approach to substitute cl-set-difference, you failed. It's just my opinion, of course, but that hard patent fact that is on display in this thread, along with the hard patent fact that I simply failed to notice your mistake -- because reading that code takes much more effort -- is a much better demonstration of the relative "abstrusity" of the practice you so energetically recommend. Like Dmitry, I don't think it's because you don't have coding ability or intelligence -- which you most clearly do -- just that your practice lends itself to these problems _more often than_ other more eclectic and pondered practices such as using more programming techniques. Jo=C3=A3o