Re: Shorthands have landed on master

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Philip Kaludercic]

João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello all.
>
> Anyway, as you may have noticed, "Shorthands" have landed on master.
> Please check out the NEWS entry and the manual section on "Shorthands".
>
> For the impatient, I leave with with a tiny animated gif.

From what I see, elisp-shorthands only allows a shorter prefix to be
mapped to a longer prefix, right? So this doesn't allow me to use cl-lib
without the cl- prefix, or remove the compat-- prefix from compatibility
functions?

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:40 PM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
>
> João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Hello all.
> >
> > Anyway, as you may have noticed, "Shorthands" have landed on master.
> > Please check out the NEWS entry and the manual section on "Shorthands".
> >
> > For the impatient, I leave with with a tiny animated gif.
>
> From what I see, elisp-shorthands only allows a shorter prefix to be
> mapped to a longer prefix, right? So this doesn't allow me to use cl-lib
> without the cl- prefix,

You need to have _some_ prefix.  It cannot be of 0 length.  Best
you can do is '-loop' and '-destructuring-bind', for example.

In fact, I lie.  You _can_ map 'loop' to 'cl-loop' explicitly.
'loop' is the shorthand.  'cl-loop' is still the symbol.
But you have to do it symbol by symbol.

That's because I've purposely turned off "freer" renamings in
favor of prefixes, simplicity and read speed.  But they are
not impossible.

> or remove the compat-- prefix from compatibility
> functions?

It's too late in the day for me to understand what you mean by
"remove" here :-)  You must first understand what shorthands are:
they are merely file-local aliases to symbols which keep their
full names.

Does this help in answering your question?

If it doesn't, provide a toy example with files and code in it,
and illustrate clearly what you would like to be able to write,
but can't (right now) Then maybe I can say if shorthands can
help you.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Philip Kaludercic]

João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:40 PM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
>>
>> João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Hello all.
>> >
>> > Anyway, as you may have noticed, "Shorthands" have landed on master.
>> > Please check out the NEWS entry and the manual section on "Shorthands".
>> >
>> > For the impatient, I leave with with a tiny animated gif.
>>
>> From what I see, elisp-shorthands only allows a shorter prefix to be
>> mapped to a longer prefix, right? So this doesn't allow me to use cl-lib
>> without the cl- prefix,
>
> You need to have _some_ prefix.  It cannot be of 0 length.  Best
> you can do is '-loop' and '-destructuring-bind', for example.
>
> In fact, I lie.  You _can_ map 'loop' to 'cl-loop' explicitly.
> 'loop' is the shorthand.  'cl-loop' is still the symbol.
> But you have to do it symbol by symbol.
>
> That's because I've purposely turned off "freer" renamings in
> favor of prefixes, simplicity and read speed.  But they are
> not impossible.

I see. Do you think it would make sense to use predefined shorthand
groups, in case someone *would* want to use cl-lib without the prefix?

>> or remove the compat-- prefix from compatibility
>> functions?
>
> It's too late in the day for me to understand what you mean by
> "remove" here :-)  You must first understand what shorthands are:
> they are merely file-local aliases to symbols which keep their
> full names.

This was in reference to the compat.el discussion from a few days
ago. It was mentioned that shorthands might provide an alternative to
aliasing function definitions. But this doesn't make much sense, if a
prefix has to be used, short or long: I want to call
(macroexp-file-name), not (co-macroexp-file-name), (~macroexp-file-name)
or (compat--macroexp-file-name) to provide transparent compatibility.

> Does this help in answering your question?

After trying out

     ;; elisp-shorthands: (("" . "cl-"))

I saw what went wrong and I understand why. On that topic, I think the
behaviour was inadequate, because a lot of unrelated commands also
broke that might become annoying.

> If it doesn't, provide a toy example with files and code in it,
> and illustrate clearly what you would like to be able to write,
> but can't (right now) Then maybe I can say if shorthands can
> help you.
>
> João
>
>

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 8:15 AM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
>
> João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:40 PM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:

> I see. Do you think it would make sense to use predefined shorthand
> groups, in case someone *would* want to use cl-lib without the prefix?

Yes, I do think that makes sense.

...meaning that drawbacks aren't immediately visible to me right now :-)

Since elisp-shorthands is a file-local variable, I think it allows (eval)
specs.  Perhaps you can try with that, for now? I don't think it'd be
hard to add better support for such predefined groups of shorthands.

> This was in reference to the compat.el discussion from a few days
> ago. It was mentioned that shorthands might provide an alternative to
> aliasing function definitions. But this doesn't make much sense, if a
> prefix has to be used, short or long: I want to call
> (macroexp-file-name), not (co-macroexp-file-name), (~macroexp-file-name)
> or (compat--macroexp-file-name) to provide transparent compatibility.

If I understand this right, then I think you may solve it similarly to the
cl- situation.

But you understand that, for the moment, shorthands are only supported in
Emacs 28, right?  Not sure where (in which versions) the library you're
intending to write would be loaded.  If that library is loaded in Emacs 27,
elisp-shorthands is simply ignored and the file is loaded normally.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:03:01 +0100
> Cc: Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
>  Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Since elisp-shorthands is a file-local variable, I think it allows (eval)
> specs.

But that will be unsafe, no?

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:14 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:03:01 +0100
> > Cc: Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
> >  Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > Since elisp-shorthands is a file-local variable, I think it allows (eval)
> > specs.
>
> But that will be unsafe, no?

Yes, this is why I wrote "for now".  It does seem plausible that
Emacs provides pre-canned alists of substitutions such as
the one used for reading 'loop' as 'cl-loop', 'second' as
'cl-second', and so on. Those would be "safe" AFAIK and we
could have a mechanism to mark them so.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Philip Kaludercic]

João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:

>> This was in reference to the compat.el discussion from a few days
>> ago. It was mentioned that shorthands might provide an alternative to
>> aliasing function definitions. But this doesn't make much sense, if a
>> prefix has to be used, short or long: I want to call
>> (macroexp-file-name), not (co-macroexp-file-name), (~macroexp-file-name)
>> or (compat--macroexp-file-name) to provide transparent compatibility.
>
> If I understand this right, then I think you may solve it similarly to the
> cl- situation.
>
> But you understand that, for the moment, shorthands are only supported in
> Emacs 28, right?  Not sure where (in which versions) the library you're
> intending to write would be loaded.  If that library is loaded in Emacs 27,
> elisp-shorthands is simply ignored and the file is loaded normally.

Yes, my idea was to use shorthands for versions greater or equal to
28.1. 

> João

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[No Wayman]

> Best you can do is '-loop' and '-destructuring-bind', for 
> example.

I just tried using a single "-" as my shorthand.
However, it looks like it will conflict with the built-in "-".
Am I doing something wrong?

Testing with the following:

YODEL[1] REPORT [2021-09-29 20:02:54]

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(yodel
  :post*
  (yodel-file
    :with*
    (defun -test (x y) (- x y))
    (-test 2 3)
    ";; Local Variables:"
    ";; elisp-shorthands: ((\"-\" . \"testing-\"))"
    ";; End:"
    :then*
    (eval-buffer)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

STDERR:

(void-function testing-)

Environment:

- emacs version: GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, 
  X toolkit, cairo version 1.17.4, Xaw3d scroll bars)
 of 2021-09-29
- system type: gnu/linux

[1] https://www.github.com/progfolio/yodel

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Bodertz]

Did you put the Local Variables part inside the function?  It shouldn't
be in a function.  It's meant to be at the end of the file, at the top
level, and not in quotes.

That is, the end of your file should look like:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
;; Local Variables:
;; elisp-shorthands: (("-" . "testing-"))
;; End:
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

At least I think so.  I can't test that.

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Michael Heerdegen]

Bodertz <bodertz@gmail.com> writes:

> ;; Local Variables:
> ;; elisp-shorthands: (("-" . "testing-"))
> ;; End:

Yes, with that

(read-from-string "-") -> (testing- . 1)

So No Wayman was correct: Emacs doesn't like that ATM, the arithmetic
function `-' is not read as such any more in the above case.

Michael.

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > So No Wayman was correct: Emacs doesn't like that ATM, the arithmetic
  > function `-' is not read as such any more in the above case.

It looks like "-" as a shorthand prefix should not rename `-'.  I can
imagine various ways to fix this, some more general and some less
general.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:09 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > So No Wayman was correct: Emacs doesn't like that ATM, the arithmetic
>   > function `-' is not read as such any more in the above case.
>
> It looks like "-" as a shorthand prefix should not rename `-'.  I can
> imagine various ways to fix this, some more general and some less
> general.

Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the many
libraries that depend on dash.el into Emacs, GNU Elpa or non-GNU Elpa.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Stefan Monnier]

> Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
> Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the many

I'm not sure why but it seems that people really like to forget that
`dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.

So here's yet another reminder that:

    `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.


-- Stefan

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 611 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 04:04 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> > Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
> > Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the
> many
>
> I'm not sure why but it seems that people really like to forget that
> `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.
>
> So here's yet another reminder that:
>
>     `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.


Yes, I remember now. So let's not import any other libraries that depend on
that until we have the namespaces sorted, which shouldn't be long.now.

João

>
>

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Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
>> Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the many
>
> I'm not sure why but it seems that people really like to forget that
> `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.

I really like to forget that such package exists at all, it is a pain
for the elisp reader.

-- 
Thierry

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > It looks like "-" as a shorthand prefix should not rename `-'.  I can
  > > imagine various ways to fix this, some more general and some less
  > > general.

  > Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
  > Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the many
  > libraries that depend on dash.el into Emacs, GNU Elpa or non-GNU Elpa.

We certainly want to do this.  Can you suggest the way to fix this problem?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:38 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > It looks like "-" as a shorthand prefix should not rename `-'.  I can
>   > > imagine various ways to fix this, some more general and some less
>   > > general.
>
>   > Yes, me too.  And they would need to be put in place if we want to import
>   > Magnar Sveen's dash.el library (which uses that prefix), or any of the many
>   > libraries that depend on dash.el into Emacs, GNU Elpa or non-GNU Elpa.
>
> We certainly want to do this.  Can you suggest the way to fix this problem?

The easiest way would seem not to rename a symbol that is nothing more than
the configured shorthand prefix.  i.e. doesn't have a suffix.  That is
what happens
with '-'.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 23:45:10 +0100
> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de>,
>  emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> The easiest way would seem not to rename a symbol that is nothing more than
> the configured shorthand prefix.  i.e. doesn't have a suffix.  That is
> what happens with '-'.

I think I agree, but could you show a patch for that, please?

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 23:45:10 +0100
>> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de>,
>>  emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> 
>> The easiest way would seem not to rename a symbol that is nothing more than
>> the configured shorthand prefix.  i.e. doesn't have a suffix.  That is
>> what happens with '-'.
>
> I think I agree, but could you show a patch for that, please?

Give me some time, and remind me soon if I forget.  Doesn't seem a hard
thing to patch in lread.c, if others want to try a stab.  An automated
test should also be added.

João

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

      > `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.

We need to modify it to use a renaming, after fixing the bug
that affects "-" as prefix.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Shorthands have landed on master

[João Távora]

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 12:18 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>       > `dash.el` is already in GNU ELPA.
>
> We need to modify it to use a renaming, after fixing the bug
> that affects "-" as prefix.

Yes.  If someone has a bit of time, please create that bug in debbugs
so I don't forget about it.

João