From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 18:46:18 +0100 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40860"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 19:47:31 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj6h-000APG-PQ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 19:47:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35612 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj6g-00045U-H5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:47:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44790) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj6E-00045G-24 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; 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Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:46:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com ([209.85.215.177]:39892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj5l-0003rH-Jy for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:46:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id g184so12520715pgc.6 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:46:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+euF7q9JE1SUzRdLtULFcf5GyAD4hoycLiQUVz/Lfl0=; b=WGqoDKF/dIythVbrGGqBtIjXvR8PRcvxsnSctQqAbmkKwln0+Iyh9HHDmceoQkk0VB CSkLjgtdlbh8fGwZE+D21MV4cPBqEok2ETz+a73rSbw0fV5HOtxwQk5Wzbkp9V5BQ9fY PvT2RE2GTb5CLrhZvZr9lFgnTBo6cdovEGoK4cHc412Pp97mGo3hWlLcqX3e8xaqgHR2 IB4pvvjSWBe8PINMZHDP899pZBkLXBekxRhrQt4GaJqTq9TjsN5qOR3Iw3/mw9eV3iU2 fnwMNDWc+9u8IxEWPhSMvEJ3gkjMHaye5a3aIo0E+3je0trOc4Tfdb12tvRWDRpTv0Jf he8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+euF7q9JE1SUzRdLtULFcf5GyAD4hoycLiQUVz/Lfl0=; b=0SNyCkOCvBEaJ2iAaYpa9UoZnoKmY6r0a6k1EfAD0EjL6yOUN/K/N/lnRPNlEavdgk CT7ZSQZ/mmZCeXimIL6qipywgPiFfaV0EWHpn8gtEA/4l/qFdQ3hlgb/4Mjf0879aN3v nnH1lcY4aCZIFIlROtbf557LCD7NkujDKXwmCQwUZeqP/yOCAZe/pgWTmyZtCTyXq6h5 VqPfvwhj35lggS8g8fcKdtz88AR+BPfX/C7rPazK2EjRnateCUEx9wQcqFwMqKgZNVM7 V9P5Zji0SuF2V9iXP1uJOpDfGyVj4qlrShm9LFK7us2/tvBaV+PEO1s/Fe8KH6nDTNui 4wWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DeQzdKJkOhyGUJCRKcVVYfc2eSW2/HHobp1q8F7jWPwH+54b6 lvy0FUUN8hDDmYuI6nuC7ryqgmIR5ATUK1F/Qgw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxz229+i2gsvPTiKSUwea4JXwyTYldN5To+Np+5wATUJaRE9ZSPmeChlMRIm3ufmfRCLRZ9dxmtW6UzUdBvq8k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:24d0:b0:448:29d1:518f with SMTP id d16-20020a056a0024d000b0044829d1518fmr17453625pfv.72.1633196787413; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:46:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:216184 Archived-At: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 4:53 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. > > I don't see the significance of the difference, from the usability > POV. You don't? Maybe you are still somewhat thinking of shorthands as similar to the products of defvaralias or defalias. s-concat may mean magnar-string-concat in a buffer, and stream-concat in another. In that some other buffer magnar-string-concat may be accessible by the shorthand ms-concat. This is how namespaces work also in other languages. In Elisp in proposals like Andreas Corallo's (https://akrl.sdf.org/lexspaces/lexspaces.html) or if Lars' proposed evolution of shorthands to be somehow local to a specific region to a buffer (like Common Lisp's IN-PACKAGE). > I'd still like to see Help commands support shorthands even if > point is not on a shorthand. Alright, it does need an implementation. Of unforeseen complexity. Certainly the most tricky of all the feature so far, I predict, as it woul= d affect many more commands. I'm not confident I can muster the effort to tackle it for Emacs 28, though I can of course experiment (and maybe it's easier, especially if you help me restrict the feature in scope). If it's ever done, I think at the very least it should be made optional, and that the default should be off. The least of its problems is that, when set to on, it would bring back some form of namespace pollution: finding too "inexplicably" short symbol names when perusing global lists of symbols. What's more, finding them there only sometimes. The more serious of its problems is that it would make the evolution of Shorthands to be local to a region (for example, as I hinted above) much harder. Then, it would raise the bar to adopting _other_ namespacing systems even higher than it already is. > I don't object, and think it could be useful. But I don't think it > could supplant the recognition of shorthands in Help commands. I think it could, by helping the user keep the correct mental model in mind. It could even be made more sophisticated, like temporarily displaying the full names of the symbols at the point of the symbols when C-h f is entered. That would be level of integration 1.5 so to speak (in the scale I gave a while ago). I think we must focus on the problem being presented here, not on the particular solution. _Why_, fundamentally do you want to see shorthands listed in an Help command? What, in layman's terms, are the pieces of information that are missing for you when you _don't_ see them? Is it more like: a. "I wonder what that that 's-thingy' over there is/means or what documentation there is for it.?" Or is it: b. "I wonder what help on s-thingies I have at my disposal here (and yes I know perfectly well what 'here' is)? I'm going to type a prefix, the TAB to find out." Or is it both? Or is it a third thing? The question goes for Phil too, though I think I have a better intuition of what his problem is: I think it's 'a': he fears he won't be able to immedia= tely tell visually what he's looking at, say in one of his windows that has an excerpt of a .el file open. Disregarding the fact that that already happens with things like cl-flet or letf, for example (lexical function definitions), I think it's a legitimate concern (especially coming from someone with likely no experience of namespace systems at all). Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora