From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: cl-lib warnings Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:35:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <86o7s3lsnx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <86bknx8783.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <837cylapt4.fsf@gnu.org> <83wn6kamwr.fsf@gnu.org> <83len0aldq.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a572ee05f05771c6" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8313"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: juri@linkov.net, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 21 15:34:41 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1p80B7-0001x0-AI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 15:34:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p80Ab-0005Ho-Ge; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:34:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p80AZ-0005HR-Jb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:34:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p80AX-0003be-0D; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:34:06 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id y18-20020a0568301d9200b0067082cd4679so9127765oti.4; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 06:34:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=U28OiEEQDgmyHm2Kk4W0VpDUvjGEpA9YvkdPLZsZc1w=; b=BLFAZQFuXO1jep4FDIcxr0s1EawQaOceBsG1mjZzMRg2Gb1NF1JLKpbQYb8Beg0W8f N6g1bUehl6GU3uFzDT9ZWiZ1kPOPAndtTzThN66HTQG3zl2LpqGUZ1Gn3uts0eMwhQXZ x5ywre2k02u+TlhQAL9SHvtSCg9X4+RMqhu+6g7PS1jnHTV9m0tg1KEwqi2/Ty05g+Dd 5r0stlnJxNi/LdFFSHJkkOGNujdFUlG0HNsPeYo2/+RWy40+OraPqH1mmBnhUQHf/Mfy Nh3eQKwca0k6Kmr/CHI7fXO363zS1RbYKzwtC77n4asgBh4FPPG+W/Bdcl72aFzQXGLp WhAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=U28OiEEQDgmyHm2Kk4W0VpDUvjGEpA9YvkdPLZsZc1w=; b=5z3y9XcEk4Zdbf/sgvQR8t9ymrD/bAmlGhKM49E3cTd4/OZwViZL7z/u8I1qcNsLBS tZbDr5l8Af/E/1M+++fTevyvJpr6uc0bhz4X0OBC5BbRMl13ZQMTbvwDcDheLhQMlBzq bEOso7dk8v8ldO82mzkjmaGQ/Yzjk8XsUJ0AYVyK3INnyQYzCHJ8Gtq7etN7GWz3Ev4E 3QCD0aHHECJ+8tydaKxKOZjwnVZ4kdGbA3dZfRRSEwXzsjaDRzXnyLi/4Dwm70PdOU1q 3daHsuNJkqn9elUtW54goi5RgAOxjN+pbWvOhM+oLpt5yYML1DuuFASKZufhjoE5v7HJ nKXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kr8GGbmKr3CF62Coh8UplK0YfH14gkTlbiUKbUBVbvNR+xinqP3 b89qfNQ9LokJ9kBuaij0A/ne+E0PV3pGdD1KP4ipRwLp X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuNpn1AaY04jSgoPdSli6UcxmfyOQEguLJbg7U/3ssG0aZab1+a/M2rSdLPo3MFuQ7wBzeD5xPKTfpQifmOFmw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4a3:b0:670:8334:ccf2 with SMTP id l3-20020a05683004a300b006708334ccf2mr122194otd.201.1671633243041; Wed, 21 Dec 2022 06:34:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83len0aldq.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::331; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x331.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:301756 Archived-At: --000000000000a572ee05f05771c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 2:20 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:04:34 +0000 > > Cc: juri@linkov.net, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > If we don't preload eldoc, it will be automatically loaded once you do > > "emacs -Q". So it makes no sense not to preload it, > > > > But I can't see how ElDoc can be useful when doing lots of > > things from emacs -Q like adding '--batch -f batch-byte-compile' > > or '--batch -f elisp-flymake--batch-compile-for-flymake', to name > > just two. > > > > Even when just emacs -Q is used, which starts up > > lisp-interaction-mode, which derives from emacs-lisp-mode, it's > > not unthinkable that ElDoc won't be actually needed at all. > > > > So IMO ElDoc should be auto-loaded, but not preloaded. > > There's also another reason to do so: upgrading ElDoc via > > M-x package-install (note that it is a :core GNU ELPA package) > > is, last time I checked, made more difficult, and requires the > > user to restart Emacs. > > If you want to lobby for disabling ElDoc by default, feel free (and > good luck!). But that is a different discussion. > Yes, that is a prerequisite, of course. AFAICT there is no reason to global-eldoc-mode enabled globally (or really, to have that variable at all). Major modes and minor modes (like elisp-mode or eglot), which are its clients, and which want to keep the can use add-hook and have it load just-in-time when (eldoc-mode 1) happens or somesuch. > Our policy and practice was since long ago that any package which is > always or almost always loaded at startup without any user say-so, > should be preloaded, since not doing that makes very little sense. So > until and unless we decide to disable ElDoc, it should stay preloaded. > Makes sense, of course. And I think Juri's point is that cl-lib.el is amon= g those relatively small packages which is "almost always loaded". Jo=C3=A3o --000000000000a572ee05f05771c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 2:20 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:04:34 +0000
> Cc: juri@linkov.n= et, monni= er@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
>=C2=A0 If we don't preload eldoc, it will be automatically loaded o= nce you do
>=C2=A0 "emacs -Q".=C2=A0 So it makes no sense not to preload = it,
>
> But I can't see how ElDoc can be useful when doing lots of
> things from emacs -Q like adding '--batch -f batch-byte-compile= 9;
> or '--batch -f elisp-flymake--batch-compile-for-flymake', to n= ame
>=C2=A0 just two.
>
> Even when just emacs -Q is used, which starts up
> lisp-interaction-mode, which derives from emacs-lisp-mode, it's > not unthinkable that ElDoc won't be actually needed at all.
>
> So IMO ElDoc should be auto-loaded, but not preloaded.
> There's also another reason to do so: upgrading ElDoc via
> M-x package-install (note that it is a :core GNU ELPA package)
> is, last time I checked, made more difficult, and requires the
> user to restart Emacs.

If you want to lobby for disabling ElDoc by default, feel free (and
good luck!).=C2=A0 But that is a different discussion.

Yes, that is a prerequisite, of course.=C2=A0 AFAICT there = is no reason to
global-eldoc-mode enabled globally (or reall= y, to have that variable
at all). Major modes and minor mode= s (like elisp-mode or eglot), which
are its clients, and which wa= nt to keep the can use add-hook and
have it load just-in-time whe= n (eldoc-mode 1) happens or somesuch.
=C2=A0
Our policy and practice was since long ago that any package which is
always or almost always loaded at startup without any user say-so,
should be preloaded, since not doing that makes very little sense.=C2=A0 So=
until and unless we decide to disable ElDoc, it should stay preloaded.
<= /blockquote>

Makes sense, of course.=C2=A0 And I think J= uri's point is that cl-lib.el is among
those relatively small= packages which is "almost always loaded".

Jo=C3=A3o
--000000000000a572ee05f05771c6--