From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:48:03 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net> <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org> <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com> <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de> <83v8hr7qk9.fsf@gnu.org> <83pm7z7nkc.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttxa6ghi.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37508"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 20 11:46:47 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQsJ-0009Xi-9q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:46:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQrn-0005B3-IJ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:46:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQrk-0005AV-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:46:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQri-0007Bs-23; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:46:11 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6a5ec0d8d8aso543287a34.2; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 02:46:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681983966; x=1684575966; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=2LVhenV/ktYy6PGhQ2pyPeh9lyfaNNsMNRHhtq3Uz4Y=; b=MkCZWei7sZPAIOkWUHKstpHxQGWikWqs+uDW7isl4gpJlUSzaBVrw3QM38Wd9zc9VW ZCuG9V5PTxCPvH+lHdNIj+DnyHTfdT1btskNtWxOS5x1LyzLYnfvhYErdIzf028KwNUB xA9ZWYi7VqgqvSvJ5EZnySekzXCw+O2uJHw14cVDr2sSrVCHJiS0lZn8rIPiLVVVX6ib 4LHIchc0LPuDUWKq4747G+f6fxEdwCS65P32al9Heeft40H6T9KwzvFiTjqVEdQEvC7g 2FPE7AE3F7/B6zZnEiDCyPfxxKnKri1/jE4o/UNPNYug6duhlHacYgb39biEuWkIabJe 7q2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681983966; x=1684575966; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2LVhenV/ktYy6PGhQ2pyPeh9lyfaNNsMNRHhtq3Uz4Y=; b=PGUOnufBartYruKpj7gmi9Lf3FQns3c+Ly3emdKIepDrSoKDEPVuoGpzK91shYo5Rf JccfcQ6TEiJW1PYVkaIbxOdw41S/d14DMY4fizVqnuEzXNWpV9CRg4CGPh8FZV2dvDnT W0aCgKGC9xd9Ys+irsDO67WOhAyCIG43opPhUA0JK2QEcZbWBaj/raSPJRb2k+CIYW9U toE9PRHOIWLC/yTTZBQUENnhmyGNONDVXICZLCp/c2WB74WiMu65jKQgHCKVGTaCqdYA nmRb+w9NrvTkL+I3JYXTQLBjf+q0TTmsg7m7D/hz/en6KInV1VHygQof0rLSGYoboEV6 ufjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cY4Um6iuwtXpzXP0He93hjCb2mXtvu/gHALBY3dfFNUguj3xyO 4h3jB0S7Kl+1fyRpkVst+NDBwxsPmU6zD6aiBhZkDd4J X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YmA+IdrgTsHU41Ci/WQ+SNvvqiW344mOIQerI6e52NBin7v5A8urg0t6JRVmIJwRE4M7lvvEfidMLhNmdfqbk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:ac27:b0:177:cbb6:ba2 with SMTP id kw39-20020a056870ac2700b00177cbb60ba2mr867339oab.53.1681983966415; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 02:46:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83ttxa6ghi.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::334; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x334.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305494 Archived-At: On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:38=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote= : > > It is what they want, by definition, this is why I named it > > "safely-upgradeable-builtins". These are the users: > > > > Specifically, users of Emacs 28 and older, who had Eglot installed, > > and expect Eglot to be automatically updated upon Emacs startup > > whenever a new Eglot version is available, will now have their > > expectations broken after they upgrade to Emacs 29, because Eglot is > > now a built-in package, and package.el won't by default upgrade a > > built-in package. > > > > Recognize this writing? It is yours! > > Yes. Of course, you conveniently omitted the next paragraph I wrote, > which described a different group of users, whose expectations would > be broken by the changes you proposed. That was also "my writing". The code I'm trying to write should appease both. But you should help characterize these users. > > > You assume that everyone will > > > want Eglot and use-package automatically updated, but this assumption > > > has no real basis. > > > > First, of course it has real statistical basis! Didn't I send you > > links to tens and tens of issues were users reported their configuratio= ns > > and one can actually see what users are doing to install Eglot? > > Since when "tens" and "everyone" are the same thing? Come on, you know that "everyone" is impossible to prove. Aren't tens (actually hundreds, I think) a good data point. Can you show even one issue where someone was surprised/harmed by furtive unintented updates of dependencies? > > Secondly, it has the theoretical basis of what you wrote yourself > > barely 1 hour ago! It shows you understand the problem that is > > new in Emacs 29. > > Of course, I understand the problem. But understanding the problem > doesn't mean agreement with the solutions you propose, or any other > solution, for that matter. An acceptable solution should solve the > problem without causing other problems, and in this case it also must > solve the problem in a safe enough manner to be eligible for Emacs > 29.1. And that's what I'm looking for. > > Using your language, we want to not "break those user's expectations". > > if we can. And we can, if you want to. You want to, right? You want t= o > > break as few user's expectations as possible, ideally 0. > > > > And the code does exactly that! It avoids bothering that set of > > users while also avoiding bothering the other set of users that > > you mentioned. > > > > And, for good measure, the set of users who had Eglot installed > > and expect Eglot NOT to be updated when package-install is found > > is the empty set. Surely this is evident. > > > > So there's no "dilemma". There is rather some kind of spectacular > > misunderstanding here. There has to be, because I'm drawing these > > conclusions from nothing more than elementary facts from set theory > > It is clear that you like the solution you proposed, and see no > problems with it. But I disagree, and at this point I have explained > my disagreement enough times. No you haven't, sorry. You've not said "Jo=C3=A3o, if your patch goes in, at least user X will have this specific problem Y when she does Z, and I think Y is bad because reasons". Dmitry is doing that, critiquing actual code. I don't think that's time wasted: it's the only way the discussion can advance. Jo=C3=A3o