From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:22:51 +0100 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19609"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 17:24:15 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgs2-0004wr-Sy for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 17:24:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57706 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgs1-0000Ua-2N for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:24:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56292) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgrq-0000PJ-DY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; 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Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:23:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:44676) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgqw-0006BE-1j for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:23:06 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id oa12-20020a17090b1bcc00b0019f715462a8so3872962pjb.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/eMW403sOgg9aEZkYe7E7+VnoebklHnST2Gwk7mwmxI=; b=RyJ3tinB27PVdxDMIKx9BwgsrMYj4rGKtMVZigG7u2mFdzP2W8lb67k16FmFoP0y2A l3zfWhBB1AnO19G3aFrBTnGZCPg2XXh7Vz74xlKXmDmME3wXy4lB3eysoNmHkgbtK+bd m/iitzMy3zUg2TIxaLWCbIJmkhVQm5kFj57rkVx80skadyaHJ5gI+/4rr/z3K6fTv3EC +UWoCZw0IJZSvR5cQW0Oh1uTBUeNZKiI0e5HDGBoCCRFNWwANAqKbaXo36Vjls4s2cXO ynJc5w0X0M2wwlLwkNeZ2McJurwQ9tSNPs/UCx9VrNkb5s7EkFKhYurDn5gz0sEE9PTl GjuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/eMW403sOgg9aEZkYe7E7+VnoebklHnST2Gwk7mwmxI=; b=0NE7CrsK0XyvFnJBccojNccOPG77iVukb4VQJs7iPWGhU+8aCHCugXnPiUI5aGRg7f yL05bc4Vl94k0oo6VkBJ4WgjeGRrq7JxHjrfut759MRYi3MIM8UnZa6wzXs4i24TRumJ VjSb4Eqpp2erDqXl8oP7RJbxWEZrnmsvvdi0JnK8oelgjyT6OXteTEdTXWly3rm3PV77 nrMKMPONFl17JDNmSPEfNwYNhzWTmHvuNlHb+6fceOJLF0vLuH8oU5IvHJ49QHcwOIDI BQXItZ6HX+yncWgICl7HAMJO7wPTRuQqNE8uXf9bAnk0OC1QHqIrHMYho1cqRcaBQGHd 3XGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vVF8Ui+t7AGg5iERDxdpTFO3sA+BM08ap12vDGE5uDWC03813 52m7Hh3a03+h9NP/dI5Skxolgeulvikk2d27XYM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjl1Dr4w492vrKCks+reU1Fsqp9ThD8GN4CyEt0nlMpL4Vk8JRnU5+znQ+9a2R91B8SAAIYH7AdacORzN7brw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5889:: with SMTP id j9mr26481339pji.91.1633188180156; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:23:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:216173 Archived-At: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 3:56 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > But they are: we always know which buffer was the current one when the > minibuffer is entered. We "the Emacs code" do. But it's not obvious to a user. The commands that invoke these things are global, remember. I very very often don't kno= w where I pulled C-h o from. And I don't want to know. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. In summary, I wish we can keep the what has been the invariant of Elisp ever since it was created, and which is underlined many times in the manual= : there is only one obarray of symbols. I believe my stance preserves this accurate mental model more than yours. > You are saying that Help commands should allow asking about > shorthands, except if point is on the shorthand? "should NOT allow". That's what I am saying, yes. Any command that operat= es on _symbols_ should not offer shorthands as candidates unless the goal of t= hat command is to directly modify the buffer where those shorthands have meanin= g. So C-h o is in the former group. C-M-i s in the latter. > That'd be a grave > restriction, I think, worse than "depending on the buffer" which you > don't like: here it depends not only on the buffer, but also on > position of point in that buffer. I don't agree, but ultimately it's your call. Notice (maybe watch the .gif again), that what happens when you type C-h o on 's-concat' is that the prompt beco= mes: "Describe symbol (default magnar-string-concat): ... " It does _not_ become: "Describe symbol (default s-concat): ... " Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. > > Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. Th= ey > > are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so i= ncluding > > shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in > > lists of fragments of > > text to be completed in the buffer is not. > I think this is unnecessarily radical POV, and one that will cause > complaints. It hasn't in SLIME/SLY and package-local-nicknames have existed for quite some time there. What is your opinion on the visually annotating font-lock idea? I think it's useful even if we decide to go with levels 2 or 3 of the above integration (which, as I said, I think we shouldn't, not for now) Jo=C3=A3o