consistent behavior across babel languages

consistent behavior across babel languages

[ian martins]

Something I've found challenging is the inconsistency between babel
languages. It makes it difficult for a babel user to get a source
block to do what they want, or for a babel developer to even know what
correct behavior is.

I'm not sure if anything can be done since changes will likely break
existing behavior, but it's good to at least know what the rule is and
where the exceptions to the rule are. To that end I started a page on
worg [1] to document current behavior for actions taken across babel
languages.

[1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/lang-compat.html

Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[Tim Cross]

ian martins <ianxm@jhu.edu> writes:

> Something I've found challenging is the inconsistency between babel
> languages. It makes it difficult for a babel user to get a source
> block to do what they want, or for a babel developer to even know what
> correct behavior is.
>
> I'm not sure if anything can be done since changes will likely break
> existing behavior, but it's good to at least know what the rule is and
> where the exceptions to the rule are. To that end I started a page on
> worg [1] to document current behavior for actions taken across babel
> languages.
>
> [1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/lang-compat.html


this is a great initiative Ian. First step in addressing inconsistencies
is documenting them. I will try to allocate time on the weekend to
review what you have and see if there are any I know of which you have
not included.


--
Tim Cross

Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[Tom Gillespie]

Hi Ian,
    Thanks for getting this started. I have been collecting a list of
org babel issues and worg is definitely a better place to put them
than in one big email. Since there are so many different features that
a babel language implementation can support I don't want to try to put
them all in one table quite yet but I think it may be helpful to do so
eventually. Until that time does it make sense to add new sections to
the file that cover specific features? For example I have tests on
TRAMP support and/or support for execution via a remote session that I
would like to add from my internal notes. Can I add it as a new
section? Best!
Tom



On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:06 AM Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> ian martins <ianxm@jhu.edu> writes:
>
> > Something I've found challenging is the inconsistency between babel
> > languages. It makes it difficult for a babel user to get a source
> > block to do what they want, or for a babel developer to even know what
> > correct behavior is.
> >
> > I'm not sure if anything can be done since changes will likely break
> > existing behavior, but it's good to at least know what the rule is and
> > where the exceptions to the rule are. To that end I started a page on
> > worg [1] to document current behavior for actions taken across babel
> > languages.
> >
> > [1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/lang-compat.html
>
>
> this is a great initiative Ian. First step in addressing inconsistencies
> is documenting them. I will try to allocate time on the weekend to
> review what you have and see if there are any I know of which you have
> not included.
>
>
> --
> Tim Cross
>

Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[ian martins]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:06 AM Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I will try to allocate time on the weekend to
> review what you have and see if there are any I know of which you have
> not included.

That would be great.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:39 PM Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Since there are so many different features that
> a babel language implementation can support I don't want to try to put
> them all in one table quite yet but I think it may be helpful to do so
> eventually. Until that time does it make sense to add new sections to
> the file that cover specific features? For example I have tests on
> TRAMP support and/or support for execution via a remote session that I
> would like to add from my internal notes. Can I add it as a new
> section?

Yes, definitely. My plan is to add sections for major features or
feature groups and have a table for each section, and when that stops
working to think of something else. I am planning a section for
variables focusing on passing lists and tables which will probably
look a lot like the section on returning list and tables. There should
definitely be a section on TRAMP.

Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[Neil Jerram]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 05:20, ian martins <ianxm@jhu.edu> wrote:

> Something I've found challenging is the inconsistency between babel
> languages. It makes it difficult for a babel user to get a source
> block to do what they want, or for a babel developer to even know what
> correct behavior is.
>
> I'm not sure if anything can be done since changes will likely break
> existing behavior, but it's good to at least know what the rule is and
> where the exceptions to the rule are. To that end I started a page on
> worg [1] to document current behavior for actions taken across babel
> languages.
>
> [1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/lang-compat.html


Wonderful, thank you.  I have been thinking it would be nice to have a test
suite along these lines, but detailed doc like this is more feasible and
maintainable.

When time permits I will work on adding Scheme to this page.

Best wishes,
    Neil

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Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[Neil Jerram]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 05:20, ian martins <ianxm@jhu.edu> wrote:

> Something I've found challenging is the inconsistency between babel
> languages. It makes it difficult for a babel user to get a source
> block to do what they want, or for a babel developer to even know what
> correct behavior is.
>
> I'm not sure if anything can be done since changes will likely break
> existing behavior, but it's good to at least know what the rule is and
> where the exceptions to the rule are. To that end I started a page on
> worg [1] to document current behavior for actions taken across babel
> languages.
>
> [1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/lang-compat.html


FWIW, I did not understand the "functional" and "scripting" terms that you
use on this page.

I've understood now, from
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/intro.html, that you mean
"results: value" and "results: output".  For me it would be better if you
said that instead of "functional" and "scripting", as the former is what I
can actually type in my Org files.

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Re: consistent behavior across babel languages

[ian martins]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 9:42 AM Neil Jerram <neiljerram@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wonderful, thank you.  I have been thinking it would be nice to have a test suite along these lines, but detailed doc like this is more feasible and maintainable.

A test suite is a good idea as a next step to protect correct
behaviors. I want to first look at actual behaviors and get agreement
on correct behaviors first. On the other hand, each of the language's
test suites should cover the same ground so a separate test suite may
not make sense.

> When time permits I will work on adding Scheme to this page.

Great, thanks!

> FWIW, I did not understand the "functional" and "scripting" terms that you use on this page.
>
> I've understood now, from https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/intro.html, that you mean "results: value" and "results: output".  For me it would be better if you said that instead of "functional" and "scripting", as the former is what I can actually type in my Org files.

yes, it's in the manual as well [1], but I agree that alternating
between two sets of terms here is unnecessarily confusing. Will
change.

[1] https://orgmode.org/manual/Results-of-Evaluation.html#Results-of-Evaluation