From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marco Antoniotti Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Retrieving the "include" directory for Emacs Modules Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 11:52:56 +0200 Message-ID: References: <67771d72.170a0220.681ba.7fadSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23234"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 03 10:53:56 2025 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tTeNO-0005vc-W0 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2025 10:53:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tTeMn-0000lb-8J; 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Fri, 03 Jan 2025 01:53:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <67771d72.170a0220.681ba.7fadSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c; envelope-from=marcoxa@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:149127 Archived-At: On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 1:12=E2=80=AFAM Bj=C3=B6rn Bidar wrote: > Marco Antoniotti writes: > > > Hello and Happy New (Hacking) Year. > > > > apologies if I insist on this issue. > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 6:53=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > > > >> Message: 5 > >> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 03:03:53 +0200 > >> From: Bj=C3=B6rn Bidar > >> To: Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > >> > >> Cc: Stefan Monnier > >> Subject: Re: Retrieving the "include" directory for Emacs Modules > >> Message-ID: <8734i7i9l2.fsf@> > >> Content-Type: text/plain > >> > >> Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > >> writes: > >> > >> >> Those under /usr/lib are looked in by the relevant compilers (they > are > >> >> include directories private to those compilers, hard-coded into the= m > >> >> when they are built). Those under /usr/share are private to the > >> >> relevant packages, and are either examples or test suites (thus AFA= IU > >> >> unrelated to the issue at hand here). Those under /usr/src are wha= t > I > >> >> mentioned: private headers needed to build a package. > >> > > >> > Indeed, they each have their own reason to exist. And this is in > Debian, > >> > i.e. a distribution which is very careful to install things in the o= ne > >> > central place where they belong. > >> > >> I'm on openSUSE which is entirely unrelated same policy. In fact all > >> Unixes have such a policy (macOS doesn't count in this context). > >> > > > > ... and why exactly MacOSX (and Windows) "don't count in this context"? > > And what is the "context"? > > I wrote macOS (the is no longer in the name) does not count in the > sentence as Unix as the NextStep/GNUStep build of Emacs uses an app > bundle which does not install into a prefix directory normally. > > It installs "normally" as far as Mac OS (X or not) is concerned. > >> > >> > Other relevant cases will look very different: > >> > Emacs.app, AppImages, Snap packages, etc... > >> > >> Who are proprietary platforms such as Snap relevant to Emacs? For thes= e > >> where a sandbox is involved such as Snap or Flatpak it is not possible > >> to interact with external resources without breaking the security of t= he > >> sandbox. > >> > > > >> But anyway this is going off-topic. > >> > >> > > How exaclty does having > > > > include-directory > > > > (and the other variables) available, break the sandbox? Or anything > else? > > If Emacs is installed from Flatpak loading libraries outside of that > sandbox break the security of it. Building modules inherently requires > to call external binaries to link against external dependencies. > Oh come on! Emacs is not exactly the "safest" of environments. Your argument here boils down to "do not build Emacs Modules". > The issue here is accommodating the wider world. > > It is but accommodating the wider world ultimately only mattered for > free open source platforms not on the non-free platforms supported by > Emacs. > I don't say that is what should happen here but the workarounds required > for some platforms should not affect others. > And how exposing 'include-directory' would affect you? Or VS Code (which, I remind you, is what the vast majority of incoming students uses)? Or FOSS platforms? > > Personal historical note. I first used Emacs on a Zentih z8000. The > first > > GNU Emacs I used was on a Sun 3/60. I also used it on AIX and, if memo= ry > > does not fail me, on a microVAX with VMS (this I may be wrong). > > > > These were (are) all proprietary platforms. "Unixy" but proprietary. = As > > MacOSX. > > > > Do you want people to use Emacs? Let them have access to it without > > imposing needless constraints. > > > > The issue is something which was known before the module system was > added to Emacs, that requiring to compile native code for interfacing > with other libraries complicates things. Which is why XEmacs had helper > programs or function to automate much of this process. > > Native modules have their place but it was criticized that comparing to > native > modules FFI would have been simpler as no native code would have had to > be compiled just to interface with external libraries. > ... great. Now, let me ask you: why are we inflicted (I feel "inflicted" =F0=9F=98=91 ) Python (a FOSS language) instead of writing love= ly parentheses? All the best MA --=20 Marco Antoniotti Somewhere over the Rainbow