From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Susam Pal Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: devil Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 09:09:34 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87ttwjbfqq.fsf@gmail.com> <83y1lv5qe9.fsf@gnu.org> <87lehv2wd9.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35800"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Payas Relekar , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 11 10:16:15 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1px1TC-00098R-Id for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 May 2023 10:16:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1NQ-00083d-GW; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:10:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1NO-00083E-Fa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:10:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw1-x1132.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1NM-0002Gt-Rn; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:10:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-x1132.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-55af4277904so127165087b3.1; Thu, 11 May 2023 01:10:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1683792611; x=1686384611; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=MxJRcS0clziFC3UuBIcmksoMafeU7SR95W3BmbJAL1s=; b=T2fi2hODeaTowyypM9ELuEPbiiWXu3shhyLxHfjE20n0iJjQICCHvr7odYYSWiNApQ rRBeJZY4/c9p+3UpKbUiWJ+zC9VinzW82Vm35dKCPd2T1IheqqXquY4jXs+PxZhZV4H+ FuAq6B8ZPzVk1ZHWmx5PfmqJxIctyJAevdZ6ZykXfYVpcR39kA7LzP9oaC+6ZtXmJzbD DyKyra8KYEdz7P5RvM5dL+wG4wHIOCusxGiJ1n5H9hRaNYUznvMyzXHp5kM0sCslVeo7 uYdzSFihtkweKrCkp69OH3s5483HcXJtBSEo1deb1nMO7RKd/CIXx3FzibIX91H+Um6R HzaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1683792611; x=1686384611; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=MxJRcS0clziFC3UuBIcmksoMafeU7SR95W3BmbJAL1s=; b=c4vzpp1F0eOfHzRJ7PxF8KobSppdS3Cnja74idMXVwbKCbDTRnPZdYPKygHDjslMOz Hmi4K6f7Bo+24OOXg4LwmQ0vLI0ISFFTEom8GYAAf5+BcdKGvAqKCriEBTrn8pgWjZvk Vx6/0Xm08u+ge9S89y+sbUKoXesqujZRaR0poJtG8jMC9uepXj6E01IH366nHcYsyQXM 6dMOjpu+y7nYSAvgkuNQrWg8c82Nwsef4+j0gDIeWGq56NWY3wpKzrQXypihSL6vWnKC fo+XJ13uf3vgRWRhDy1UHtvrwqC7vo9fYNWltU8gifSjO9k0IkG+PemweWeEIfPlgZW4 PmoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDx6Z4hfHYDk2uG9Sh/2HH3TjzNoQO9y+5LAU4nIx7i+xFaDU9yI G68GnyhOpMWvJ9+JV+M4iLVIOWeaVmEoS8l6uFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4NP7LpUDUKyPOzNiNj0Kv0G27Bkgl399Z4QGUVIIVI2aKoCcZdjvcyC5bG1hm1e4RF4yGa5q46l7S4fksGTgM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:723:b0:b9e:206:f720 with SMTP id l3-20020a056902072300b00b9e0206f720mr21552002ybt.61.1683792610821; Thu, 11 May 2023 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87lehv2wd9.fsf@posteo.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132; envelope-from=susam.pal@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x1132.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306044 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Payas Relekar > >> Cc: Philip Kaludercic , susam.pal@gmail.com, > >> emacs-devel@gnu.org > >> Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 10:53:15 +0530 > >> > >> Richard Stallman writes: > >> > >> > Why use the name "Devil" for this? It doesn't seen to explain anything > >> > about the package's purpose. It is likely to put some people off. > >> > >> Every name is going to put someone or another off, can't really help it. > >> OpenBSD has their daemon and there are already funny anecdotes about it, > >> but it doesn't hurt anyone. > > Also, "daemon" is not just an OpenBSD thing. > > > "daemon" is a term whose meaning in computing context is widely > > accepted for many years. "Devil' isn't. > > I agree. > > >> > If there is no clear reason why "Devil" is a good name, let's choose > >> > a better name now. > >> > >> As mentioned by Susam in previous mail, as well as the repo README, the > >> name refers both to 'eVil' (extensible Vi Layer) as well as 'God-mode'. > > > > People are extremely unlikely to understand that, even if they know > > about Evil in Emacs. And even if they do figure out this is related > > to Evil, the truth is that the package is not meant to be used by > > users of Evil. > > I think it is more likely than you assume if you ask enthusiasts, but if > we consider the average user who doesn't hang around in Emacs-related > forums, chats, etc. then this is very true. > > >> The name is distinct, and I like it for what it is. > > > > Please reconsider, I think this name is very unfortunate, because it > > gives users no clue whatsoever about the package's purpose. > > Susam, what do you say? Do you have any ideas? A few names I can think > of might be: > > - no-modifier-mode > - prefixless-mode > - implicit-ctrl-mode > - comma->control-mode > > but I'm not really convinced by any of these (haven't really used the > package yet either). Perhaps this might inspire someone else to come up > with a better suggestion? Although the default translation rules in Devil translates comma to ctrl, m to meta, etc., Devil is very configurable and one is free to configure Devil in other ways that may or may not involve the comma key or the modifier keys. For example, I am aware that there are users of Devil who use the semicolon as the Devil activation key and translate semicolon to control. There are also users who only translate some activation key to control key but regular alt modifier key on their keyboard for the meta modifier. > If you really insist, then I think we really have to come up with a > better description, because "Minor mode for Devil-like command entering" > is really confusing. > > > Thanks. While I understand the desire for a more descriptive name, I believe that "Devil" is a suitable choice due to its humorous reference to both God mode and Evil mode. Some people like the name. Some do not. I like this name. If it is essential for the package's name to reflect its purpose, I propose "Devil" to stand for "Devil's Extremely Versatile Interception Layer". I agree that the current description of the package needs improvement. I have now updated it to "Minor mode for intercepting and translating key sequences." Regards, Susam