From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:13:38 -0500 Message-ID: References: <5288A59E.7030109@dancol.org> <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87mwl04w3k.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <87iovo4caz.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <877gc14vzs.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <878uwhxnqe.fsf@informatimago.com> <83txf4cw9z.fsf@gnu.org> <528F77B8.9090602@lanl.gov> <83ob5ccoct.fsf@gnu.org> <83iovkcf1g.fsf@gnu.org> <83a9gvcyq3.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04451a7f4ddfec04ebd993a2 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385219623 1693 80.91.229.3 (23 Nov 2013 15:13:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:13:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 23 16:13:49 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VkEu3-00058x-IY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:13:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44045 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VkEu2-00025d-U5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:13:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50025) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VkEty-00025V-M4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:13:43 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VkEtx-0002hG-I0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:13:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]:32953) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VkEtv-0002gu-Kk; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:13:39 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id ca18so3796112wib.5 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=b4ijy1ECKJaR9HkhXowJ4SiRBe5df6+ZdH+Ba2Kyvv4=; b=e1NLgkmduVFvrsWbMn6j1Lvk5dLNpI8rVYNGk+VFmKgk/s48iE1DEJ/tYRjj3WHDcp 78eDhODEcmQideimBxPdgxOP8mDvUUnMYxc511Tjek3Az59KVszN518Mz5N+jzDiajeR lzYrT9B0YisB2o1xjKiJKL+qfAomJZwwH2BAvdqTlfMC77pyqnQ/SKgiJi8uLBReqawX er1G+E9+/1ti0FtibuCKhQKLGdIMz8AZbCc9b1gEUfirmJk8XIM5/rOGOGL4Wko+Baz/ 6hEzE2zGO7JK9v9Rlj53eK2NquzQsEPiAWPFDnYclI6ykk7BXoeTPaY/XkUoJJgYwjlB aZJA== X-Received: by 10.180.98.229 with SMTP id el5mr6985621wib.29.1385219618624; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.201.195 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83a9gvcyq3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: E0_zzaMVA32j0GDGe8LLrLBhavY X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165622 Archived-At: --f46d04451a7f4ddfec04ebd993a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 3:24 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > [Why private?] Fumble fingered. > > Fri, 22 Nov 2013 16:47:05 -0500, John Yates wrote: > > > > I want to be able to say "This is a chapter title" or "This is a step in a > > recipe" or - most commonly - "This is a top level paragraph with no > > particular distinctive property". After that I want my tool have a basic > > sense of how each item ought to be formatted. More importantly I want it > > to allow me to say, all elements of a particular type that I may have > > created heretofore as well as any I may create in the future should be > > formatted in some new manner. I think of this as a declarative UI. > > > > If I understond your description correctly your model is one in which (as > > an inveterate emacs user :-) I would compose a command to say "find all > > items matching the following pattern and change each's formatting property > > P from X to Y". I think of that as an imperative UI. My biggest stumbling > > block is that I do not understand how it allows me to express my intentions > > relative to content yet to be entered. > > We need to have both. For the former, we have face customization, > which does exactly what you describe. Are you saying that I can customize an emacs face to specify inter-paragraph space? a bullet glyph or numbering style? first line and subsequent line indentation? That is definitely not the case with my emacs, current as of Nov 8th. Perhaps you are saying that a viable design could extend faces with additional attributes to support those concepts. Hmm... I will give that some thought. At the very least, without introduction of any new terminology, it will introduce yet another Humpty-Dumpty-esque "When *I*use a word it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less" for emacs new comers. /john --f46d04451a7f4ddfec04ebd993a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 3:24 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [Why p= rivate?]


Fumble fingered.

> > Fri, 22 Nov 2013 16:= 47:05 -0500, John Yates <john@y= ates-sheets.org> wrote:
> >
> > I want to be able to say "This is a chapter tit= le" or "This is a step in a
> > recipe" or - most c= ommonly - "This is a top level paragraph with no
> > particul= ar distinctive property". =A0After that I want my tool have a basic > > sense of how each item ought to be formatted. =A0More importantly= I want it
> > to allow me to say, all elements of a particular ty= pe that I may have
> > created heretofore as well as any I may cre= ate in the future should be
> > formatted in some new manner. =A0I think of this as a declarative= UI.
> >
> > If I understond your description correctly y= our model is one in which (as
> > an inveterate emacs user :-) I w= ould compose a command to say "find all
> > items matching the following pattern and change each's format= ting property
> > P from X to Y". =A0I think of that as an im= perative UI. =A0My biggest stumbling
> > block is that I do not un= derstand how it allows me to express my intentions
> > relative to content yet to be entered.
>
> We need to= have both. =A0For the former, we have face customization,
> which do= es exactly what you describe.


Are you saying that I can customiz= e an emacs face to specify inter-paragraph space? a bullet glyph or numberi= ng style? first line and subsequent line indentation? =A0That is definitely= not the case with my emacs, current as of Nov 8th.

Perhaps you are saying that a viable design could extend faces with add= itional attributes to support those concepts. =A0Hmm... I will give that so= me thought. =A0At the very least, without introduction of any new terminolo= gy, it will introduce yet another Humpty-Dumpty-esque "When I u= se a word it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less&qu= ot; for emacs new comers.

/john
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