From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Casting as wide a net as possible (was: First draft of the Emacs website) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:46:42 -0500 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11362d989027a605268df346 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449766024 10564 80.91.229.3 (10 Dec 2015 16:47:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:47:04 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 10 17:47:04 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a74Mu-0002V8-DR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:47:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42897 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a74Mt-0001R2-Bl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:46:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47638) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a74Me-0001QU-K8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:46:46 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a74Md-00044U-7n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:46:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]:35999) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a74Mc-00044O-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:46:43 -0500 Original-Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so50218681pac.3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=EZI5b2vJPc9GBxoz9BKl34va4C72FoXPSImFXcJ80gI=; b=HbNiiI1LgKzZ75BN4RdhOtMNPduBOES+qzSrXJ1ustbmBQv+YCSB3cWnsftoWyQ1iW SttstEZqOc2jF68R6vZfZRRCqxikpUl8nPE/Lw5pzjareyNDSoixOX0767hik0dcR8iR QdjUdQLNxiCeF3s6tZTU+XKDMa3dXboxXGzO/O26DV3zGWBvE8Yoiy+Fr+LNBwSMsyAS f7DGcz86PfE2Zb7oULfAqST3uQz/uQ3uYvB5NrNfcVELUsjev9q3pzSxuluDSt2Zz/LH vNq+q6UnzE4b8HnYZCkUn7oNhXOIw6r9hHwnuT3aH8JrbxHVHWvb+7tgvwDzfcZVHxoC 5wWg== X-Received: by 10.66.65.203 with SMTP id z11mr18021934pas.152.1449766002106; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.66.84.35 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Sender-Auth: QKwmuEJH8aAPsArQgMKwsH7XUaQ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:196025 Archived-At: --001a11362d989027a605268df346 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Having first raised the issue of the merits of pitching Lisp on the Emacs website allow me to chime in again. My thought was that what Emacs needs before all else is more users. Period. A large enthusiastic community of users will spawn in time more accomplished, more advanced users. Even if the vast majority of those users never contribute to FSF nor write any serious Lisp we still benefit from their spreading the word. And the larger the community the more the laws of big numbers will guarantee we harvest some amount of new, younger talent. I would hope that our site would be not just a self-indulgent love fest, a litany of all the things we - the advanced, deeply committed users - love about Emacs. Instead I imagine our site as the place where a newbie becomes seduced by Emacs' clearly wonderful and unique functionality, available "out of the box". The site should make it clear and easy how to try out Emacs and ensure as much as possible a very positive experience. That experience should be good enough to motivate some number of the site's visitors to abandon permanently their current editor. There might be some low key mention of future ecstasy to be discovered down the road. But the first order of business is getting our newbie to try Emacs and conclude the (s)he likes it. Do you seriously want to adopt the stance that if a would be user does not drink the Lisp CoolAid then (s)he is not welcome to use our editor? Or at least (s)he has to get past our proselytizing? A newbie following up a suggestion that (s)he checkout an editor called Emacs should not be assailed by a religious pitch about how (s)he should lust to use Emacs because its extension language is superior to that used in other editors. First off most users are going to assess an editor based on what they came achieve right out of the box. After all until one has used a tool for a while one has little sense of where one's personal itches lie. Further, to the extent the our newbie already has a favorable impression of some other extension language pitching the virtues of Lisp could well be a turn-off. Net, we loose a potential convert who at the least might have been another satisfied Emacs booster, and who - were (s)he the sort of user prone to modifying tools - might have come around in time to writing extensions and contributing them back to the project. For those who are interested (eg the 13 year old Drew postulated) there are many easily discovered resources on the web describing Emacs, Lisp, eLisp, etc. We could easily include on our site a curated list of links to the best of such resources. If we feel that there does not yet exist a sufficiently effusive description of (e)Lisp we can write one and link to it. /john --001a11362d989027a605268df346 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having first raised th= e issue of the merits of pitching Lisp
on the Emacs website allow me to = chime in again.

My thought was that what Emacs needs before all else= is more
users.=C2=A0 Period.=C2=A0 A large enthusiastic community of us= ers will
spawn in time more accomplished, more advanced users.=C2=A0 Eve= n if
the vast majority of those users never contribute to FSF nor
wri= te any serious Lisp we still benefit from their spreading
the word.=C2= =A0 And the larger the community the more the laws of big
numbers will g= uarantee we harvest some amount of new, younger
talent.

I would h= ope that our site would be not just a self-indulgent
love fest, a litany= of all the things we - the advanced, deeply
committed users - love abou= t Emacs.=C2=A0 Instead I imagine our site
as the place where a newbie be= comes seduced by Emacs' clearly
wonderful and unique functionality, = available "out of the box".
The site should make it clear and = easy how to try out Emacs and
ensure as much as possible a very positive= experience.=C2=A0 That
experience should be good enough to motivate som= e number of the
site's visitors to abandon permanently their current= editor.
There might be some low key mention of future=C2=A0ecstasy=C2= =A0to be
discovered=C2=A0dow= n the road.=C2=A0 But the first order of business is
getting our=C2=A0newbie to try Emacs and con= clude the (s)he likes it.

Do you seriously want to adopt the stance = that if a would be user
does not drink the Lisp CoolAid then (s)he is no= t welcome to use
our editor?=C2=A0 Or at least (s)he has to get past our= proselytizing?

A = newbie following up a suggestion that (s)he checkout an editor
called Em= acs should not be assailed by a religious pitch about how
(s)he should l= ust to use Emacs because its extension language is
superior to that used= in other editors.=C2=A0 First off most users are
going to assess an edi= tor based on what they came achieve right out
of the box.=C2=A0 After al= l until one has used a tool for a while one
has little sense of where on= e's personal itches lie.=C2=A0 Further, to
the extent the our newbie= already has a favorable impression of
some other extension language pit= ching the virtues of Lisp could
well be a turn-off.=C2=A0 Net, we loose = a potential convert who at the
least might have been another satisfied E= macs booster, and who
- were (s)he the sort of user prone to modifying t= ools - might
have come around in time to writing extensions and contribu= ting
them back to the project.

For those who are interested (eg t= he 13 year old Drew postulated)
there are many easily discovered resourc= es on the web describing
Emacs, Lisp, eLisp, etc.=C2=A0 We could easily = include on our site a
curated list of links to the best of such resource= s.=C2=A0 If we feel
that there does not yet exist a sufficiently effusiv= e description
of (e)Lisp we can write one and link to it.

/john
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