From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Corentin Henry Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:25 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d58c860a667b04c3326fe3 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340521298 26368 80.91.229.3 (24 Jun 2012 07:01:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:01:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: rusi Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 24 09:01:37 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SigpE-0000od-QS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:01:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41485 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SigpE-00020I-FU for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:01:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59231) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sigp8-00020D-FM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:01:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sigp6-0005de-IZ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:01:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-f171.google.com ([209.85.212.171]:48150) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sigp6-0005d6-6P for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:01:28 -0400 Original-Received: by wibhq4 with SMTP id hq4so1413791wib.12 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:01:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=biXjS2D4a6Oikzkjp/+mXyJRlssA8QfeElRFbS7tVdA=; b=z4zdF3V8ai42wXHK/CUQoDDWKBY60Dvwf07/b7hO0XC/nVMUHQuBWYWAtwNAfiQaJc YHDfVXzpO1paQ0yFXn+QrYOlcA7c//Ii4RCbN4dg77HGAowsSYNcmDAGS8C6rtoBDmMT tIj1s6JvWvqqX6rxARxcAq3UrKcGHi1nwfRg3gPT/WryIjcKcLe5lbQoG1nufXRRaAO2 +XC1YAS9gTk5+dCfDXafI6xQGrJbb/gvgEbJo3isGTmoZOmoFPM6j3QxIx9nHuojMxwC X3/VLSZ+RnPaO3yM7EqrJggfTorouFvn9pfaNXdsgVD/LUn3jMH2SbdxOdkz27zVoJBy c0gw== Original-Received: by 10.216.216.154 with SMTP id g26mr3866491wep.120.1340521285576; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.194.18.132 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:01:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.171 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85408 Archived-At: --0016e6d58c860a667b04c3326fe3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, but I think the emacs documentation IS hard for a beginner like me. - At the very beginning, I didn't know where to search ! I was navigating through pages an pages, and the more I read, the more I had to read. - There is no "how to", whereas that's what people want nowadays. I don't want to spend time reading and understanding how emacs works, through pages of documentation (even if it is well written) ! I want to be told how to do what I want. - The online manual is ugly... HTML is cool, but a little bit of CSS would improve the manual a lot. 2012/6/24 rusi > On Jun 24, 7:39 am, ken wrote: > > > 5. Make the elisp documentation and tutorials so easy and fun to learn > > that tons of people actually want to write code. > > When I first started reading the emacs/elisp docs around 93 I found > them a model of clarity. > Has that changed much? I dont think so > > Whats changed? The fact that we are in 2012. > In those days it was completely natural to expect that somebody who > used a computer read a manual > Today thats a strange requirement to say the least. > > Would a modern kid using a new phone/car expect to read a manual? The > fact is they dont (whereas oldies like me struggle to find them :-) ) > > And so you give them emacs along with a manual and they look at you > funny. > > By chance they look inside and they find: > - there's a key called Meta? Whazzat? > - C-p and C-n do up and down? Really?! (and whatever is C- ?) > - And when you tell them arrow keys work just fine they are ready with > a lock and key to put you away somewhere > > tl;dr version: Saying that emacs manuals are not fun and easy to learn > is wrong. Its just that reading them feels like 1980 > --0016e6d58c860a667b04c3326fe3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I think the emacs documentation IS hard for a beginner like me.<= br>
  • At the very beginning, I didn't know where to search ! I was= navigating through pages an pages, and the more I read, the more I had to = read.
  • There is no "how to", whereas that's what people want now= adays. I don't want to spend time reading and understanding how emacs w= orks, through pages of documentation (even if it is well written) ! I want = to be told how to do what I want.
  • The online manual is ugly... HTML is cool, but a little bit of CSS woul= d improve the manual a lot.

201= 2/6/24 rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com>
On Jun 24, 7:39=A0am, ken <geb...@mousecar.com> wrote:

> 5. Make the elisp documentation and tutorials so easy and fun to learn=
> that tons of people actually want to write code.

When I first started reading the emacs/elisp docs around 93 I found
them a model of clarity.
Has that changed much? I dont think so

Whats changed? =A0The fact that we are in 2012.
In those days it was completely natural to expect that somebody who
used a computer read a manual
Today thats a strange requirement to say the least.

Would a modern kid using a new phone/car expect to read a manual? The
fact is they dont (whereas oldies like me struggle to find them :-) )

And so you give them emacs along with a manual and they look at you
funny.

By chance they look inside and they find:
- there's =A0a key called Meta? Whazzat?
- C-p and C-n do up and down? Really?! (and whatever is C- ?)
- And when you tell them arrow keys work just fine they are ready with
a lock and key to put you away somewhere

tl;dr version: Saying that emacs manuals are not fun and easy to learn
is wrong. =A0Its just that reading them feels like 1980

--0016e6d58c860a667b04c3326fe3--