From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Vyacheslav Gonakhchyan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Kickstarter for Emacs Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:38:02 +0400 Message-ID: References: <87wr5dfm9v.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8b34cb330d04bdf0cf30 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1334741909 28684 80.91.229.3 (18 Apr 2012 09:38:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:38:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tom Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 18 11:38:25 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SKRL8-0001BJ-M4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:38:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47193 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SKRL7-00054T-Sq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:38:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:44560) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SKRL0-00054O-Nz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:38:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SKRKv-0003QN-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:38:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:47602) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SKRKv-0003Pj-EM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:38:05 -0400 Original-Received: by iajr24 with SMTP id r24so12674317iaj.0 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8n5d57WSsVXg+thre1KSjdIeX5DG/seBtHWRW0I4jyk=; b=Z8EGjmlX81JziPVsMJYPlkxJ4klLWixY3Pi7QUMXWQQtYF1I3hnjOw2WYaR5kG9sbZ q9mZRZh9PVDAgLb6pA0zS1Y8KPC7Q2lSF+ntl5cbiFvXJWxpOXtSM5BQMp3osmcOiR+d 5fvvFEKrD8KEGGQ43vdbFHShHtt8GtwOmocazqbKlt3ynKaYsQkdkXzz01FKy545RXU7 ePxuHZjU0mUs0Y00BKTdXWeepi/ePww0VsNDEkFevf5hoBMlhWkY4MXlHEZak3QgrtWq hVkswToxN8a8jN5y1ugQ5ujrtU78OySNcF0brS+WkB94k9TIrElsnSw6H801JbwlHw1r hnVg== Original-Received: by 10.42.159.202 with SMTP id m10mr861946icx.50.1334741882843; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.50.190.161 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:149746 Archived-At: --90e6ba6e8b34cb330d04bdf0cf30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On kickstarter there is a reward system. The point is that you can buy final product for a lower price. And then after the completion of a project price goes up. That gives people motivation to buy early. In emacs the only motivation is that you know that the money will go towards completion of certain feature. But there are no rewards because emacs is free. So I think it won't be as much successful. On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Tom wrote: > Chong Yidong gnu.org> writes: > > > > So far, I haven't seen much call from individual Emacs developers for > > financial support, but individual developers (e.g. of third-party > > packages) can always set up their own donations mechanism, rather than > > using Kickstarter, which as far as I can tell is just a way to funnel > > money to Kickstarter Inc and Amazon (who take a whopping 10% cut from > > donations). Their PR campaign sure is impressive, though. > > That's why I said the model is the point, not Kickstart itself. > If there is other ways to do it it's also good. The important part > is there should be a way to quickly set up projects to fund > specific features like on Kickstartes instead of having static, > generic donation points like the FSF donation page. > > > > > If there is interest in funding anything at the Emacs project level, the > > FSF has set up a mechanism for donating to individual GNU packages, > > currently used by GNU Octave and GNU Telephony; see > > > > https://my.fsf.org/associate/donate/working-together > > > > Yes, but it's project level support. I was talking about feature > level funding, so that people can fund the implementation of their pet > feature explicitly instead of giving money to the generic project > and let the developers decide what they want to work on. > > People are much more willing to give money if they know it will > go to fund the specific feature they want implemented. Paying > for scratching my itch makes my itch go away, so I'm willing to > pay for it. > > > > But, as I said, I don't currently see much need. > > There is no neeed, because there is no way to fund specific features. > > For example, I often read on the net people saying that they love > emacs, but for Java they use Eclipse, because that understands > the language (intelligent completion/refactoring out of the box) > better. > > What if someone, say a freelance developer, says the he wants to > improve emacs java support significantly (of course, the goal should > be more specific), but for that he needs to work on it several months > full time. In order to do it he needs funding, so he doesn't have to > take up on other jobs during these months, so he does it if people > donate a certain amount. > > That's how the projects on Kickstarter work and I bet there would > be quite a few people willing to pay a few dollars for emacs to have > Java support comparable to Eclipse. The only problem is currently > they can't do it, because there is no way to fund a certain feature > explicitly. > > So I think there is a need, only developers don't consider this > possibility of funding their work. That's why I started this thread, > so somebody may start such a project which he wants > to do, but can't, because of lack of time and other work commitments > and money making needs. > > The only thing to keep in mind the project should be something > which interests lots of users (like better Java support, but surely, > there are quite a few others), because people won't fund niche features > which only a handful of people need. > > > > --90e6ba6e8b34cb330d04bdf0cf30 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On kickstarter there is a reward system. The point is that you can buy fina= l product for a lower price. And then after the completion of a project pri= ce goes up. That gives people motivation to buy early.
In emacs the only= motivation is that you know that the money will go towards completion of c= ertain feature. But there are no rewards because emacs is free. So I think = it won't be as much successful.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com= > wrote:
Chong Yidong <cyd <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> So far, I haven't seen much call from individual Emacs developers = for
> financial support, but individual developers (e.g. of third-party
> packages) can always set up their own donations mechanism, rather than=
> using Kickstarter, which as far as I can tell is just a way to funnel<= br> > money to Kickstarter Inc and Amazon (who take a whopping 10% cut from<= br> > donations). =A0Their PR campaign sure is impressive, though.

That's why I said the model is the point, not Kickstart itself. If there is other ways to do it it's also good. The important part
is there should be a way to quickly set up projects to fund
specific features like on Kickstartes instead of having static,
generic donation points like the FSF donation page.

>
> If there is interest in funding anything at the Emacs project level, t= he
> FSF has set up a mechanism for donating to individual GNU packages, > currently used by GNU Octave and GNU Telephony; see
>
> =A0 https://my.fsf.org/associate/donate/working-together >

Yes, but it's project level support. I was talking about feature<= br> level funding, so that people can fund the implementation of their pet
feature explicitly instead of giving money to the generic project
and let the developers decide what they want to work on.

People are much more willing to give money if they know it will
go to fund the specific feature they want implemented. Paying
for scratching my itch makes my itch go away, so I'm willing to
pay for it.


> But, as I said, I don't currently see much need.

There is no neeed, because there is no way to fund specific features.=

For example, I often read on the net people saying that they love
emacs, but for Java they use Eclipse, because that understands
the language (intelligent completion/refactoring out of the box)
better.

What if someone, say a freelance developer, says the he wants to
improve emacs java support significantly (of course, the goal should
be more specific), but for that he needs to work on it several months
full time. In order to do it he needs funding, so he doesn't have to take up on other jobs during these months, so he does it if people
donate a certain amount.

That's how the projects on Kickstarter work and I bet there would
be quite a few people willing to pay a few dollars for emacs to have
Java support comparable to Eclipse. The only problem is currently
they can't do it, because there is no way to fund a certain feature
explicitly.

So I think there is a need, only developers don't consider this
possibility of funding their work. That's why I started this thread, so somebody may start such a project which he wants
to do, but can't, because of lack of time and other work commitments and money making needs.

The only thing to keep in mind the project should be something
which interests lots of users (like better Java support, but surely,
there are quite a few others), because people won't fund niche features=
which only a handful of people need.




--90e6ba6e8b34cb330d04bdf0cf30--